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Driven

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PostSubject: Forgiveness   Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:21 am

OK, so I have had a question for a while, but I only just figured out how to put it into words. If we sin and ask for forgiveness, but don't repent, are we forgiven? For example, if I steal a bike, and ask for forgiveness but make no motion to return it, am I forgiven? Or, if I have a habit of drinking and overdo it one night, if I ask for forgiveness for that night without trying to stop that addiction, am I forgiven?
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:05 pm

Ouch tough one. Theologically I am not absolutely sure (but leaning towards "no").

Logically I would argue that I cannot even see a scenario where you could sincerely apologize without repentance. If you truly feel bad for what you have done (either to another person or God) then it would stand to reason that you do not want to repeat the behavior that lead to the need for you to ask for forgiveness. You would want to repent (or turn away) from that behavior so as not to hurt the other person again (or grieve God with your sin). So I would say a plea for forgiveness without repentance doesn't sound like a true act of contrition to me. It would be like saying you are sorry for the results of your actions, but not at all sorry about your actions. (make sense?)

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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:50 am

I think Christians live in a perpetual state of forgiveness. Yes, we should specifically ask for forgiveness, but what if I forgot to confess a sin back in 1992? Am I on my way to hell no matter what I do now because I forgot? I don't think so.

I believe God expects us to be working towards perfection, but we never can really attain it on this earth. And I don't think God is "disappointed" with us when we blow it. We can be disappointing to ourselves and others, but never to Him because He knows the end from the beginning, and He knows each and every failing and triumph.

Ask yourself this: How many of my sins were in the future when Christ bore them on the Cross?

Answer: ALL of them. Condemnation is not for us, brother. Romans 8
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:06 am

Quote :
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:28 pm

Quote :
I think Christians live in a perpetual state of forgiveness.

I agree. I believe all sins past, present and future are forgiven the second we put our faith in Christ.

....................
Me an ishmael81 recently discussed this...I will share with you what I shared with him........


The Law and Sin

Romans 7


7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me.
11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I the desire to have do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.


Notice paul says his mind {spirit} serves God but his flesh serves sin. His flesh continues to serve sin even though he is saved and one with Christ and he {paul} can't control it. When we walk by the spirit the spirit (remember our spirit is one with Christ spirit) controls the flesh. When we sin its our unsaved flesh that sins but our spirit is now sinless because we have a spirit that is one with Christ spirit...and Christ does not sin. The spirit of Christ can control the flesh but we humans cannot...thats why human behavioral modification never really works and is actually anti_God. We have to let Go and let Christ do everything. ..including guide our behavior. Our best human effort is worthless. So is this a license to sin? Absolutely not. When we sin (walk by the flesh) we reap fleshly consequences but not spiritual. Consider this...
our motivation to do right comes from us following the spirit...Christ working through us, living through our lives, looking through our eyes, and working through our minds.
When we sin we take Christ right through it with us. He never leaves us or abandons us. I do not believe we go around asking for forgiveness all the time as much as we simply agree with the lord and ask him to help us walk by the spirit. Its like if you hurt me and came back and apologized...I already forgave you and we are simply agreeing that you hurt me and that you are forgiven.

Consider
1 cor.5:5..you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of theLord. This man was in a sexually sinful situation (even the pagans looked down upon) and his flesh was handed over to Satan but his spirit was saved and today he lives in heaven. Our spirit is who we are...not our flesh. Our faith saves us and preserves us ...not our actions. Our faith is what matters now...not our sin. The flesh will die but the spirit lives on forever and we will obtain a new body that does not sin but walks with Christ.
(Since someone will probably bring this up) works come from Christ working through us.. not us working for him. The works however have no saving power and are a manifestation of relationship with Christ. He changes us..we don't change for him. That's why we surrender our will and let his will work through us. That's what it means to walk by the spirit. Remember, scripture says our works are filthy rags to the lord but we are made holy perfect children of God by his spirit living within us. We have faith and surrender ourselves to the lord And HE does everything else.

This is the way I see it...
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:52 pm

my perspective is somewhat different than most you will hear.
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:05 pm

unworthy wrote:
my perspective is somewhat different than most you will hear.

Share it, brother. I might disagree, but I won't be disrespectful. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:57 pm

Tall Tyrion wrote:
unworthy wrote:
my perspective is somewhat different than most you will hear.

Share it, brother. I might disagree, but I won't be disrespectful. Smile

Agreed

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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:12 pm

ok.. short summary..

I think in every area of life there is a balance.. in this case I think it is a balance between God's mercy and God's justice. I think that too often we either lean toward the legalistic side (you can't do x,y,z or you'll go to hell) or toward the opposite side (you can't do anything to go to hell - ie: it doesn't matter how you act) .. personally I think there is a balance.

I think that we must show "fruit of repentance" ... just like we show the "fruit of the Spirit" .. it is not something born MERELY of human effort but a reflection of an inner change that the Spirit accomplishes in us.
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:29 am

I don't disagree with any of that.
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:56 am

A few verses to consider.

Isaiah 55:6-7: Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

1 John 3:8-9: 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

2 Corinthians 5:17: Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Acts 3:19: Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out,

Those are just a few...

Now, I believe that we are forgiven of any sin once we accept Christ. BUT, we also have several commandments to not sin. If we are a new creation and not of the devil, we should not only stop sinning but w should want to not sin. Read the Acts verse. We are to change.

Now, as to whether we are forgiven without repentance. I would lean towards not, because we haven't "turned back" or changed. We may ask for forgiveness, but only to get out of trouble, not because we're genuinely sorry for what we did.

Now, that's not to say that we don't struggle. For years I struggled with porn. I asked forgiveness every time, but I always went back to it. True repentance didn't come until I decided to stop looking at it because I want to be a Godly man.
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:28 pm

Interesting posts from everyone here. I was leaning towards "no" myself.

Also, I fully agree with what unworthy said, how we don't have a license to sin (see Romans 6) but we're not necessarily subject to the law (it's somewhere in the Epistles, I think…).

Committing sin is kind of different from living in sin; the former is a one-off thing from which we repent and are forgiven, while the latter is perpetual refusal to truly repent.
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:02 am

I don't disagree with anything Ishmael said, either.

To me the difference lies in the question being asked. If someone were to be glorying in their sin while claiming salvation, I would preach a hardcore repentance message. Using the grace of God as a license to sin is an abomination. To someone who is sincerely being convicted of sin and searching for forgiveness, I would preach grace.

If DBF is being convicted of sin, no one here needs to play the role of the Holy Spirit. He needs to hear about grace, not conviction. The Holy Spirit is at work here, he is not under condemnation (Romans 8 ).
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:00 pm

neither should ever fully overshadow the other.. you have to preach "God loves you but He hates your sin" .. you can't leave either part out....

remember that in Romans 8 Paul says "in US WHO" .. He adds that qualifier to in whom the "righteous requirements of the law" are filled... as well as "but if YOU by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh" .. that means YOU have to put them to death.. (by the Spirit) .. God is not going to magically make you stop sinning.. but He expects you to.
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:13 pm

Quote :
you have to preach "God loves you but He hates your sin" .. you can't leave either part out....

I think this is what we preach to the unsaved.....

Quote :
remember that in Romans 8 Paul says "in US WHO" .. He adds that
qualifier to in whom the "righteous requirements of the law" are
filled... as well as "but if YOU by the Spirit put to death the deeds of
the flesh" .. that means YOU have to put them to death.. (by the
Spirit) .. God is not going to magically make you stop sinning.. but He
expects you to.

I agree and disagree here...the way WE put to death the deeds of the flesh is to walk by the spirit...not through human behavioral modification. I think when we accept Christ our spirits are made perfect, holy and sinless and sin no more. I think Christ does make us sinless and when we sin its the sin and our flesh that is sinning...not us. When we sin in the flesh I think God doesn't see it or count it against us and it has no spiritual ramification in any way...I guess you could say I believe God does magically make us stop sinning and he just wants us to walk in this gift by the spirit....even if we sin the only thing that happens is we have earthly ramifications and sufferings and that is what God wants to spare us from. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:10 am

brokentulsa wrote:
I agree and disagree here...the way WE put to death the deeds of the flesh is to walk by the spirit...not through human behavioral modification.

Do you mean that it has nothing to do with our changing our attitude? For example, quitting drinking involves action on our part… it doesn't disappear the moment we accept Christ.
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:37 pm

I am saying that if we are walking by the spirit and allowing him to change us from the inside out and renew our minds we won't do certain things because he (not us) will change our desires. We all have free will and choose to walk by the flesh or the spirit. I am saying that 12 step programs and certain medications and certain human disciplines do not really work because they don't get to the root cause of the problem. They basically put a band-aide on the problem. Walking by the spirit and allowing our minds to be renewed gets to the root problem because it creates a whole new thinking pattern and desire in our very core. Unsaved I always had desire to do cocaine. I did alot of it..(it was the 80s Razz )...I hated how I felt later and saw what it was doing to my life, health and bank account but I still had the drive. 12 steps and human behavior modification attempted to control it (and did for short periods) but I always had the desire. Only when I decided to stop trying and let God take over did i fully stop. The key...he renewed my mind and I totally lost the desire. Smile
I dont go around worrying or thinking about sin anymore...Instead I just live and enjoy my life and let the spirit be my guide. From time to time I/we all make choices outside of the spirit and we suffer earthly consequences but we are still just as saved and just as loved and just as holy. God hates sin because he sees what the earthly effect on our lives is...not because he wants to control us. He doesn't condemn anyone...people condemn themselves. People go to hell because they refused to accept Christ..not because of their sin. We are all sinful people on the outside but Christians are alive and sinless on the inside while the unsaved are dead on the inside. Thats why I say we are all forgiven but only those with faith will be saved. Its called the new covenant and its awesome and holy and free.
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:45 pm

how many thousands of christians walk around in sin every day.... I'm sorry but to say that we bear no burden to change our behavior... well, to me, that makes no sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:28 am

As normal we will have to agree to disagree unworthy. From mine and my churches theological views all christians are Sinless. The reason most people don't understand is because they can't separate the flesh from the spirit. Paul says it's not his spirit that sins but his flesh.. and he can't control it. Only Christ can control it.
I also think the way one views sin and the new covenant plays a part in understanding. I ( as well as the theological view my church holds) believe that the law is for the unsaved...not the saved. We have the spirit. The law is there to show the unsaved that they need a savior. It's there to show them the way to Christ.
What do you think changed under the new covenant? Explain romans 7 and what paul means when he says its not him that sins?
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:09 pm

unworthy wrote:
how many thousands of christians walk around in sin every day.... I'm sorry but to say that we bear no burden to change our behavior... well, to me, that makes no sense.

No, it doesn't, but it also makes no sense to say that God has no part in it. I think it's both. Do we accept salvation in Christ, or does the Holy Spirit draw us and give us the grace to accept salvation? The answer, IMO, is both. Yes, we cannot become saved as an act of our own will, but the Holy Spirit does not force us to accept Christ against our will, we respond to God's grace.

In the same way, I think the sanctification that God requires us is a symbiotic thing. Yes, we can only cleanse ourselves of sin with the help of the Holy Spirit, but He does not force us to do right, we must still choose to do right of our own free will. We can choose to sin.

Galatians 3
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:25 pm

but if YOU, BY THE SPIRIT, put to death the deeds of the flesh......

it doesn't say if the Spirit puts to death the deeds of your flesh...

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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:55 pm

Quote :
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? -- Gal 3:3
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:02 pm

And how do we put to death sin...we accept christ as our saviour and by our free will decision we allow him to change us and renew our minds and change our views and behaviours. We make the decision to walk by the spirit...but even if we choose to walk by the flesh it doesn't effect our salvation...we are saved by faith..not by our works or behaviour. As far as our salvation is concerned sin doesn't matter. Faith matters. That doesn't mean we won't have earthly consequenses and God wants to spare us that.
Again unworthy I ask..explain what paul means when he says its not him that sins but the sin and his flesh that sins. Even he says he can't control it and calls himself the biggest sinner.
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:03 pm

Great verse tt. I love galatians!
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