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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Opinions?   Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:28 pm

I've read her blog, and now this. What do you guys think about this story? I'll withhold my opinion until the discussion starts...

http://todaynews.today.com/_news/2012/10/22/14616573-living-like-a-good-bible-woman-was-complicated-says-author?lite
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:48 pm

Interesting. I kind of wonder what her true motive was...I mean you can buy her book.

I also tend to get a little defensive when people bring up "rules" from the Old Testament and try to pass them off as "rules for Christian living" (not that she specifically did that.....but it kind of looks that way).

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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:44 pm

I'm not sure what to think. I understand where she's coming from, but does she really think that the Proverbs example she is challenging is a commandment or more allegorical? I don't think anyone is saying any women have to meet every point of the Proverbs 31 woman to be virtuous. I think they are more examples--not hard set rules for "Christian womanhood".

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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:24 am

Thanks for the opinions guys.

I think she's being kind of frivolous and sarcastic towards God, personally. The Levitical laws in the OT were fulfilled when Christ came. This feels like someoen trying to be edgy and hip to appeal to the mainstream while still trying to be part of the church. What she doesn't realize is that this only highlights her lack of knowledge about the Bible, instead of making her look good.
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unworthy

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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:18 pm

I think you are being over critical and judgemental towards her without sufficient information... and I don't think a proper understanding of the new covenant vs old means that all the laws/concepts of old testament law suddenly become outdated/outmoded/meaningless ... while I'm not saying I will agree with everything that she seems to have said or done (as I have not read the book either) I will say that perhaps other people should be looking to see what a "Godly man" and "Godly woman" is as it seems to me that this society has LOST the concept. The freedom in Christ is freedom TO DO RIGHT not freedom to DO WRONG and justify it by grace....

OT principles still apply and the law that God gave is absolute. Just because we have a new covenant by which our redemption is brought and a new relationship doesn't mean that what God said was wrong/right in the OT is not still so.

There are some things that she did that I do not believe are a part of being a "godly woman" (such as sleeping in a different bed than a man during her period -) but at the same time how can I not applaud someone who actually seems to be striving to be a godly woman!

etc, etc...
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:29 pm

Maybe you're right Jon. Someone at CMR posted that they thought she was trying to challenge the Church and what we think women should act like.

My repsonse was that by her being identified as a feminist in the first or second paragraph, I didn't really think about it that way.

I've also read her blog and while I'm all for pushing boundaries and making people live their faith, she has left a bad taste in my mouth.

But really, she's met her objective. We're talking about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:38 pm

ishmael81 wrote:

My repsonse was that by her being identified as a feminist in the first or second paragraph, I didn't really think about it that way.

I didn't noticed that she had indentified herself as a "feminist". That would cause me to be less inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt. Of course people redefine terms all the time, and her view of "feminist" may not match the historical "femi-nazi" use of the term.

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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:47 pm

Sorry it wasn't in the article - it's on her blog...
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:20 pm

Me and my wife have read the article and the blog and my wife plans to read her book. As many of you know I believe in a theological view point that says we are not under the law in any way...including the ten commandments...In fact we believe that any Christian who lives under any law or form of the law is cursed..(I am not judging anyone...just showing where I stand theologically).
We see her point. many churches preach the idea of women being less than men and push for women to live a literal proverbs/law filled life. Joyce Meyers has written several books on this issue that promote the life this woman lived for a year as the proper way for women to live...Joyce also preaches this and has literally millions of followers worldwide. Pentecostalism also promotes this idea. My ex-wife..who is Pentecostal...lives like this woman did and believes if she doesn't she will go to hell. My mother...who is a faith movement member as well as a Joyce Meyers fanatic...also lives this way. In the city I live in many conservative southern baptist women we know also promote the literal proverbs woman lifestyle. Believe me when I say the mixing of old testament law into Christianity to form a certain law led faith is alive and well it is fact.
In some ways I guess my wife would fall under the feminist tag and I am ok with that. We are each equal in our marriage. We each wash our own clothes and clean our own bathrooms. I clean my "Mancave" and she cleans her 'womancave". She takes care of her plants and the patio and I do all the dusting and vacuuming of the house. I cook 5 nights a week and she cooks 2. whoever cooks cleans the mess up. Our money is one and we each get an allowance and I take care of the bills. We have to be like this...my wife is bipolar and this arrangement works to keep us going.
The woman who wrote this book is making a good point that it is obscene and foolish to live the life she did for a year. Is she being sarcastic..maybe. Is she trying to prove a point...deffinitly. The point is this is what a law based religion looks like and she stresses we are no longer required to live this way. If there was no new covenant most of us would be on our way to hell because most of us would not follow the law.....
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:08 am

I know I had my opinions of Mrs. Evans but I think it's hard to say all people are a certain way, BT. I'm Pentecostal and while I certainly believe there are models that my wife can follow, our church does not teach it as law and that she'll go to hell for not doing it.

I'm not trying to argue with you, just suggesting you be careful about generalizing... Very Happy
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unworthy

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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:14 am

ok. well.. as far as "old testament law" vs "new testament grace" my question would be... has God changed? If He has then so has God's standard. If not then His standard has NOT changed and any old testament law which is not connected to the old system of justification (ie: sacrifices) or is an offense which required an act of justification (sacrifice) is still a sin. God has not changed and neither has his will, plan, or character. Anything which attempts to skew that is pride, arrogance, and of man.

Now, we don't live under law; we live under grace. This, however, does not mean that the definition of sin (or what is a sin) has changed. Wrong is wrong and right is right.

Living under grace changes our relationship with God and with the law (not changing the law itself). It merely means that instead of using the blood of animals to justify us (the old testament system) we now use the blood of Christ to do so. We are not free, however, from the necessity of repentance, a clean heart, and of living a godly life.

-------------

As to the authority system. I believe absolutely that God put the man as head of the household. This is not only scripturally sound but historically and doctrinally sound. However, I don't think that necessarily means "men work outside home" and "women clean, cook, etc." Being a leader in the home infers nothing about the work he does or does not do in the home... There is, of course, balance in that.

Personally I believe any wife who does not submit herself to her husband as to God is outside of the will of God and any man who does not submit himself to God and lead his family is outside of the will of God (unless he is constrained by a contentious woman lol). God designed the family.

A system of authority is not a measure of importance, value, or purpose but merely a way of allowing things to be run efficiently. (setting up family and church without leadership would be as ignorant as an army of privates - nothing would be done.)

--------------

Honestly I'm not really sure what to think of this woman.. I may have to read the book before I can give an honest opinion. Some things I read she sounds like she is searching out what a godly woman is according to Scripture .. others sound more like she is trying to say that the Scripture is not realistic, etc...

some of it seems to stem simply from ignorance, eisegesis, or misunderstanding of the text or it's application (principle rather than absolute)...
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:42 pm

unworthy wrote:

Personally I believe any wife who does not submit herself to her husband as to God is outside of the will of God and any man who does not submit himself to God and lead his family is outside of the will of God (unless he is constrained by a contentious woman lol). God designed the family.

A system of authority is not a measure of importance, value, or purpose but merely a way of allowing things to be run efficiently. (setting up family and church without leadership would be as ignorant as an army of privates - nothing would be done.)


Well said!

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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:34 pm

Quote :
just suggesting you be careful about generalizing...

True..there are so many views within views and denominations generalization isn't always right. I will rephrase and say Oneness pentecostal...thats what my exwife is Smile

Quote :
outside of the will of God

Not trying to argue..My belief is that if you are a believer you are always in the will of God and if you are an unbeliever you are not in the will of God. I don't really believe that we go in and out of the will or that certain behaviors in the Christian life dictate if we are in or out of Gods will.

Quote :
Now, we don't live under law; we live under grace. This, however, does
not mean that the definition of sin (or what is a sin) has changed.
Wrong is wrong and right is right.

I agree sin is sin and that the law is perfect and holy..but i believe the law is no longer for Christians and does not dictate our life. We are under grace made holy, perfect and sinless...when we sin its our flesh, not our spirit..which is who we are.
I believe the law is now for the unsaved to show them that they need a savior and to render judgment against the unbelievers. Scripture says if one is going to follow the law one must be perfect in all of the law...to break any of the law is to break all the law. Since all unbelievers are not under grace they are all guilty of breaking the law therefor they deserve the punishment they get.
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:05 am

brokentulsa wrote:
Quote :
just suggesting you be careful about generalizing...

True..there are so many views within views and denominations generalization isn't always right. I will rephrase and say Oneness pentecostal...thats what my exwife is Smile

Quote :
outside of the will of God

Not trying to argue..My belief is that if you are a believer you are always in the will of God and if you are an unbeliever you are not in the will of God. I don't really believe that we go in and out of the will or that certain behaviors in the Christian life dictate if we are in or out of Gods will.

Quote :
Now, we don't live under law; we live under grace. This, however, does
not mean that the definition of sin (or what is a sin) has changed.
Wrong is wrong and right is right.

I agree sin is sin and that the law is perfect and holy..but i believe the law is no longer for Christians and does not dictate our life. We are under grace made holy, perfect and sinless...when we sin its our flesh, not our spirit..which is who we are.
I believe the law is now for the unsaved to show them that they need a savior and to render judgment against the unbelievers. Scripture says if one is going to follow the law one must be perfect in all of the law...to break any of the law is to break all the law. Since all unbelievers are not under grace they are all guilty of breaking the law therefor they deserve the punishment they get.

The distinction makes sense now.

I do have a question about this particular sentence: "My belief is that if you are a believer you are always in the will of God and if you are an unbeliever you are not in the will of God."

So if I "believe", I can do drugs, have sex with prostitutes and get drunk everyday and it's okay in God's eyes? I understand that we are to walk in the Spirit but you make it sounds as though the Bible presents no guideline as to how to do that.

You go on to say: "when we sin its our flesh, not our spirit..which is who we are."

So if I do the things above, it isn't really me who does them? It's my flesh? I'm not trying to be difficult, but saying that my flesh did something takes all responsibility off me and puts it on... who? This seems like compartmentalizing to justify sin. The whole "The devil made me do it" argument, only in this presentation, it's "My flesh made me do it".

What of the fact that within Jesus' own teachings, the only one of the Ten Comandments not mentioned is to keep the Sabbath?

And what of Romans 6:15? "What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!"

I don't think we should live by the law but Jesus tells us that "all those who love me will obey my commandments." That one sentence doesn't line up with what you're presenting as your beliefs, unless I'm misunderstanding, which is entirely possible.

Please understand - I'm asking these questions in love. I don't want to start an argument. God knows I've been in enough of those over at CMR. But I am seriously afraid I am misunderstanding what you're presenting as your beliefs.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:12 am

it has always seemed to me that as hard as you have fought for free will against Calvinism that you just gave up on the concept after that.... not trying to be offensive I've just never understood this whole "once saved, always saved" type of theology. To me it takes away free will and you fought so hard against Calvinism for that reason...

I forgot the question you asked me that I never answered... It had something to do with Paul's writing to the Romans I believe.
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:01 am

Well Jon, that just the problem with me (!). I truly believe that it isn't Calvinism or Arminianism in an "either, or" kind of view.

I know that a lot of people really don't understand how I can hold two seemingly contradictory beliefs, but really, the Bible is full of them when talking of God and His character. He's loving but He's just. He's merciful but He's holy. He's gracious but He's righteous.

I don't believe in "once saved, always saved" either. I think we can choose to walk away from our faith - I've seen people do it (though a Calvinist/Reformed thinker might say they were never saved in the first place...).

Bottom line, I think the way this whole thing works is way beyond our understanding. Which is why I hesitant to use -isms or labels...
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:09 pm

Quote :
Please understand - I'm asking these questions in
love. I don't want to start an argument. God knows I've been in
enough of those over at CMR. But I am seriously afraid I am
misunderstanding what you're presenting as your beliefs.

Very Happy..no problem...

Quote :
So if I "believe", I can do drugs, have sex with prostitutes and get drunk everyday and it's okay in God's eyes?

It is sin but it has no effect on us spiritually, only fleshly. we believe all sin past, present and future has already been forgiven. No part of our salvation is based on our behavior. Its all based on our faith.
Now if we sin we will reap earthly consequences and feel frustrated and whatever but we are still saved no matter what. When Jesus preached things like the sermon on the mount he was trying to show the Jews what being totally obedient to the law looked like. Jesus said stuff like pluck out your eyes and other radical things like this to show how perfect and obedient the law has to be but he also preached that faith through him is the lighter yoke. Faith in Christ is what saves us. The instant we are saved we have all our sins past, present and future forgiven and we are 100% in Gods will right then. Our dead spirits are done away with and we get a new spirit..Christ spirit.. . Our new spirit is perfect and does not sin. Now we believe that our flesh is not saved and our flesh and spirit are constantly at war with each other until we die physically or we get our new glorified perfect bodies...whichever comes first. We cannot ever get our flesh under control but Christ can and that is why we should live by the spirit...if we are really living by the spirit we are walking out the perfect peaceful life but if we walk by the flesh we are still saved, still blessed, still loved and still in Gods will. Gods will is simply that all people believe in Jesus for salvation and no one is lost. Behavior after salvation has nothing to do with Gods will but with our free will...thats not to say he would be happy with a carnal lifestyle because he wants whats best for us and it pains him to see us suffer the fleshly consequences of our choices when we walk by the flesh instead of the spirit. We believe that God, out of his awesomeness, has given all man complete free will over their own lives and does not push anything on us or take anything from us. So you could "do drugs, have sex with prostitutes and get drunk everyday" and if you are a believer you will be saved in the end...you will reap earthly consequences that bring pain and maybe even death but your salvation is secure. We believe that since our old man is gone and we get a new spirit then once saved always saved is a fact...even if we walk away because even if we are not faithful God is.

This might help...

http://www.andrewfarley.org/common-questions
(Click the question to get the answer)
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:03 pm

I'm sorry, but I have to completely disagree with virtually all of that post.

Not going to argue it with you, as I know that I will not change your mind, but doesn't make a bit of sense to me at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:20 am

brokentulsa wrote:
It is sin but it has no effect on us spiritually, only fleshly. we believe all sin past, present and future has already been forgiven. No part of our salvation is based on our behavior. Its all based on our faith. Now if we sin we will reap earthly consequences and feel frustrated and whatever but we are still saved no matter what. When Jesus preached things like the sermon on the mount he was trying to show the Jews what being totally obedient to the law looked like. Jesus said stuff like pluck out your eyes and other radical things like this to show how perfect and obedient the law has to be but he also preached that faith through him is the lighter yoke. Faith in Christ is what saves us. The instant we are saved we have all our sins past, present and future forgiven and we are 100% in Gods will right then. Our dead spirits are done away with and we get a new spirit..Christ spirit.. . Our new spirit is perfect and does not sin. Now we believe that our flesh is not saved and our flesh and spirit are constantly at war with each other until we die physically or we get our new glorified perfect bodies...whichever comes first. We cannot ever get our flesh under control but Christ can and that is why we should live by the spirit...if we are really living by the spirit we are walking out the perfect peaceful life but if we walk by the flesh we are still saved, still blessed, still loved and still in Gods will. Gods will is simply that all people believe in Jesus for salvation and no one is lost. Behavior after salvation has nothing to do with Gods will but with our free will...thats not to say he would be happy with a carnal lifestyle because he wants whats best for us and it pains him to see us suffer the fleshly consequences of our choices when we walk by the flesh instead of the spirit. We believe that God, out of his awesomeness, has given all man complete free will over their own lives and does not push anything on us or take anything from us. So you could "do drugs, have sex with prostitutes and get drunk everyday" and if you are a believer you will be saved in the end...you will reap earthly consequences that bring pain and maybe even death but your salvation is secure. We believe that since our old man is gone and we get a new spirit then once saved always saved is a fact...even if we walk away because even if we are not faithful God is.

This might help...

http://www.andrewfarley.org/common-questions
(Click the question to get the answer)

When the time is right I shall discuss this.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:34 pm

Quote :
When the time is right I shall discuss this.

There is really nothing to discuss..we each know what each other thinks.. besides, I don't want to break the rules of this forum. We can agree to disagree though Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:53 pm

bassdude wrote:
I'm sorry, but I have to completely disagree with virtually all of that post.

Not going to argue it with you, as I know that I will not change your mind, but doesn't make a bit of sense to me at all.

Ditto...but that is to be expected when "we" start discussing theology.....which is why most of these types of discussions are so unpopular here.

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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:55 pm

The way I see it is that if we really are followers of God, we should not be seeking to sin, if that makes sense. ie we should be trying to quit our addictions (with the help of God) rather than blowing it off and saying "God will forgive it". That, in a nutshell, is how I see that question earlier asked.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions?   Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:59 am

Andre,

That is, in very simplistic terms, a great way to look at it.
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