Illegal Downloading

Ok, so in the Demos thread, we began discussing the legitimacy of downloading off the internet band's music.  Rather than completely hijacking that thread... I figured I'd start a new one where it'd be more appropriate!  To catch you up, I included the beginning of the conversation:

kerrick wrote:

Thanks dude.  I dunno, I try not to do the illegal download thing unless I get the band's explicit permission - even if it is of something that's otherwise just about impossible to attain.  Some day I hope to get ahold of the true demo (or even better, a re-release on CD!). 

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:

I don't see demos as taking money out of the hands of the artists.  Demos are demos. Unless they are re-released by the artist and sold (ie Bride, Haven, and many others have released their demos as an album to sell for profit). Most demo albums are mega rare and even if you were lucky enough to find one, the artist wouldn't see any money from it.

Which is why I'm gonna ask if we can upload some OOP demos and post them here - 
What say ye, Alldat ? 

So, to respond, it's not necessarily just about the money to the artist...  Because you could say the same thing about used CDs.  The artist gets no money from me buying a used CD off of eBay.  But that is still legal and I don't see as immoral.  The artist planned for that to happen when they decided to press those CDs.  For me, it's more of a question of entitlement.  If I can't get ahold of music legally, am I still entitled to enjoy it?  Is a "victimless crime" still a crime?  I dunno, it just doesn't seem right to me to take something that wasn't meant for me to take, ya know?  Now, it's the artist's material so if they say it's ok, then it's ok in my book.  But until then... I just don't feel right doing it.

I think what is important is the where ... a site run by the artist or record company versus a fan site. I have no problem downloading a demo song, or even a released song, from the artist or record company themselves; after all, if they didn't want us to have it then they wouldn't have made it available. However, I will not DL from any site not directly affiliated with the artist.

I think it's also important to stress download. This is the act of retrieving information from a remote location in a manner that is intended to allow the information's retrieval, i.e. a download link on a web site, a valid FTP site, etc. Using a recording application to record streaming music is not downloading, it is stealing IMO. 

As for G/F's OOP question, I think it is acceptable to make OOP music available for sharing, but I don't know if it is truly legal. Unless the music has been declared as public domain, someone somewhere owns the rights to it, even if it's a distant descendant of a long-dead singer, and that person might take exception to folks sharing what they consider to be their property.

Safest thing: when in doubt, don't. I don't think this forum should permit the practice of publicly sharing music in any way, shape, or form.  To do so only invites legal troubles. If you want to share a demo that an artist released, provide a link to the download site. If you want to share something that is OOP, do so privately, and preferably not via PM but via your own personal email. I don't even think we should allow the sharing of members' songs (e.g., AllDat and Xid); if those guys want to share their music with us, demo or otherwise, there are avenues for doing so.

While I appreciate the sincerity involved here. I personally have no problem with trading music - all music. My ultimate goal is to OWN all originals of what I like the most (and I have thousands upon thousands of original albums whether I supported the artist directly or supported the Goodwill), but I've been trading music clear back to the 80s when we copied records to cassettes - and I still do. 

I will appreciate and respect the views of others, but I will never agree.

Right now I've got my 2 albums up on Noisetrade for free.  I'd rather those who are going to download it do it from the source rather than sharing so I have an idea of how much it's getting out there.

But Derek, isn't yours available with a donation as well ? How many donate ?

Sure! Donations are always welcome.  Since putting my stuff on Bandcamp April 16, 2012, I've had 78 downloads & 26 purchases.  I uploaded to Noisetrade at the beginning of this month and have had 12 downloads with 0 donations.

Nice ! Kind of a shame there's no method an artist could obtain royalties for every used album sold. 
For example: An artist sells their CD for xx.xx amount. The owner of that cd eventually sells it on amazon or ebay - when it sells, it would be awesome if the artist could get like 1 dollar of the sale. 
Idk, just thinking out loud with ideas to keep the artists paid.

Like G/F, I have no problem sharing something that is definitely OOP.  Also, I keep looking until I find something as far as original copies go if I can.  That isn't always possible, but I do search for it and obtain it if I can.  I have even bought a few bootleg CDs this way.

I don't see a problem with it if the artist is unable to profit from the music at all.  If it ain't out there to buy, then they aren't losing money.  Once they start redistributing that album, then it needs to be bought the old fashioned way.

Amen.

I see both sides. The few "illegal" things I have are either so rare I can't find them or... stuff like Steve Taylor, who said in several interviews that if you can't find it to get it where you can.

Knowing I had his permission, I downloaded Steve Taylor's music, too.

With regard to illegal downloads of demos it generally doesn't exist.  You can only download something illegally if it is copyrighted.  By definition most demos are made by unsigned bands who typically don't take the time to copyright their material (especially stuff from the 70's and 80's).

Even with that, if they have put their music into a format for distribution, a court will still honor an implied "copyright" if someone chose to sue you for distributing their music illegally.  It is ultra rare that this happens as most musicians that have not profited from age old recordings are usually just glad to find out that someone remembered them.

alldatndensum wrote:

Like G/F, I have no problem sharing something that is definitely OOP.  Also, I keep looking until I find something as far as original copies go if I can.  That isn't always possible, but I do search for it and obtain it if I can.  I have even bought a few bootleg CDs this way.

I don't see a problem with it if the artist is unable to profit from the music at all.  If it ain't out there to buy, then they aren't losing money.  Once they start redistributing that album, then it needs to be bought the old fashioned way.

Fear Not! I had never heard of them and a year or two ago a friend of mine made me a copy of his CD. I would buy it in a heartbeat if reissued.