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xenonlion

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PostSubject: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:38 pm

Okay. I'm venting kinda sorta, though I wouldn't mind some kind of explanation. What I do not get is when Christians talk about how amazing the 10 Commandments are and that you should keep them or act like they keep them. I dunno. I feel like going up to them and saying, "You don't even keep the 10 Commandments. Please sit down and stop talking." Like... I'm growing up around Sabbatarians and most don't even keep the Sabbath right. I'm talking about the Sabbath because that's the one that Christians tend to not do. I'm not a Sabbatarian anymore, but still. It annoys me a little. Ugh. I need to sit down and stop talking. Haha Anyway.... I really don't understand though. Why do Christians act like they keep the 10 Commandments when they don't? I dunno.

I'm asking here so I don't cause a 10000 page debate. Haha yeah.
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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:20 pm

I would think that any Christian with an understanding of what Jesus said regarding the 10 commandments would know that there is no possible way for anyone to "keep the commandments".  It's just not possible.

I rather like Ray Comfort's approach to the ten commandments.  He likens them to a mirror to be held up to men & women so that they can see their imperfection before a perfect God.  Then they will see the need for a Savior to keep them from being held accountable to those laws.

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xenonlion

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:39 pm

Okay. I see.
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Driven

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:48 am

I'm at Bible school right now, and I just had a few courses on how the law works, so bear with me as I try to write what I learned and believe about the law (including the 10 Commandments). It may or may not be right, or clear, but I've tried! Razz

First, I'd say that there are many reasons for the law. Yes, as Staybrite mentioned, it is a proof of the fact that we are practically incapable of being sinless (even though theoretically, one could follow the law to the letter). In addition, it's a means of protecting God's people from harm; for instance, the ban on pork is useful because (especially back then) pigs are extremely dirty, infectious, diseased animals; as well, the Sabbath was a means of insuring that the Israelites got the rest they needed; finally, circumcision prevented infections from developing on the concerned body part (and although I cannot confirm this, some say it offers certain pleasures…).

The law is also God's way of defining sin and showing man how terrible sin is. Before the law, God had said "don't do this, do that", and people followed what God said, simply knowing what sin is, but in Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers, God laid down many laws (613 is a common estimation) to define exactly what sinning against Him is. In addition, the thousands upon thousands of animals sacrificed for sins were a proof of just how sinful we are!

I think another reason for the law is to not only show us that we are sinners, but to show us that Jesus was not a sinner. He's the only person in history to have held the law entirely, without fault, and thus he was sinless. In this way, he could take upon himself our sins, because he didn't have his own sins to account for. There's a verse somewhere (can't remember where, maybe in Matthew?) that says that Christ did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, which he did: by following it, and by being a sacrifice for sin!

So what does that mean, that the law is not abolished but fulfilled? Well, Galatians was written by Paul to a church in a non-Jewish area, that was being taken over by Jews who wanted to compromise salvation in Jesus with the need to be circumcised and to eat kosher foods. Paul speaks vehemently about how Jesus alone is the way to life, and that salvation cannot be obtained through the law! Check out the following verses: Ephesians 2:8-9 ; Galatians 2:16, 21 ; Galatians 5:4, 5; Romans 3:20, 23-24. To me, there's no doubt of that!

That doesn't mean we can disregard the law entirely, though. Romans 6 is a very heavy passage that describes how we are not supposed to go on sinning after we become Christians. That's not at all to say that if you commit a sin, you lose your salvation; what it means is that if someone deliberately sins, repeatedly, without repentance, then it casts a doubt on whether or not that person is truly saved.

Yes, sin is defined by the Ten Commandments and all the other Levitical commandments. But the law can be summed up in these two phrases, according to Deuteronomy 6 and to the gospels: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength” and “Love your neighbour as yourself”. These hold pretty much all the commandments in them; if you love God, you’ll follow his will for you, and if you love others, you’ll also follow God’s will.

So, do we follow the law or not? I’d have to say, not religiously. The law was the hope of salvation for the Jews; to Christians, it’s both a reflection of how sinful we are and a pointer to how to live. Usually, Christians divide the law into three parts: the moral law, which we should follow (e.g. the 10 Commandments); the civil law, which we are not supposed to follow but which contain good life principles (e.g. the Sabbath as a holy day, kosher foods as a means of protection against diseased food); and the ceremonial law, which is all about sacrifices and no longer necessary, because Jesus was the last sacrifice.

Therefore, there is still such a thing as sin, contrary to what some believe; some say that the only sin is rejecting God. Sin is defined as “missing the mark” or not following God’s commandments; if I were to commit a crime, it would still be sin against God, because I’ve broken his commandment and not done his will; not to mention it’d be a sin against mankind as well.

Last night, we guys in the dorm had a discussion about transformation: how when we are saved, God starts to slowly turn us into the people he wants us to be. Part of that is no longer being sinners. Throwing off our sin is something we cannot do alone, but for which we need God’s help.

So, to actually try to answer your original question (Laughing)… I’m not sure we’re obligated to keep the 10 Commandments. What is sure is, as a child of God, that I won’t be condemned if I break them. I am justified - made just, made sinless - in the eyes of God by the work of Christ alone, not by doing or not doing certain things! That’s a good thing, because we’re utterly incapable of following the law!

I find it interesting that God put one item of civil law - the Sabbath - in with the nine other items of moral law in the 10 Commandments. He wanted people to take a day off and rest, and I do that. I don’t do it religiously, as the Jews would’ve done, but I try to take a day to just relax, do something other than schoolwork, so as to rest my mind and do other things.

Hope that helps, and if it doesn’t, please let me know, and I’ll do my best to clear it up. Smile
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:18 am

Driven,
Excellent post.

I'd add that anyone can follow rules but I think the thing is that God wants a relationship with us. I can follow rules all day long but if my attitude is crappy then what's the point?
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xenonlion

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:50 pm

I understand a bit better now. Sorry if it seemed like a dumb question. I don't understand a lot of things Christians say or what they mean by things. Really, I'm a new Christian and I don't know very much Christianese. That should be a legit language or something.

They definitely show our need of a Savior and that we can't save ourselves. The 10 Commandments do not save anyone. I don't think Christians are obligated to keep them specifically.
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:06 am

xenon,
Don't ever be worried about a question around here. Unlike CMR, there's people who want to help you.
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xenonlion

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:53 am

Well, I'm sure the folks there would want to help me too. It's just that a disagreement could cause a long debate unless you say to just state what you think abd not debate about things.
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Driven

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:15 pm

Some of us disagree, but I don't think we've ever had really any debate. Usually, the "Biblical Discussion and Prayer Request" forum lives up to the second part of its name. It's not that we don't want discussion, it's that it mostly just doesn't happen.

I like this topic, though. It's an interesting question, and it's a question I'm not wise enough to answer with confidence.
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xenonlion

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:36 pm

It would be interesting to see more discussions. I don't think they would get as heated either.

I'm glad you like my question. It's something I've wondered for a bit.

What I like though is that I don't see Christians pick and choose too much. Like, in Adventism, you have to go by Leviticus 11. I don't know why. Why not other stuff in Leviticus, too? Why just Leviticus 11? Stuff like that...
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Driven

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:54 pm

Leviticus 11 is partly about kosher, or pure/impure, foods/animals, and partly about impure contacts. So essentially, it would seem that the Adventists still think that certain animals are considered impure. And yet, in Acts 10:9-16, God essentially abolishes the notion of kosher foods by telling Peter to "kill and eat" all sorts of non-kosher animals (remember, Peter was a Christian, but was a Jew before then). The passage can be taken metaphorically to mean that Peter was to accept eating with non-Jews, even though that was culturally a taboo thing to do. But Paul writes in Romans 14 that we are free from that. That's not to say that sticking to kosher foods is a bad thing; I believe it might have health advantages. But to rely on kosher foods as a means of being a "better person" or to gain salvation, I believe, is not what is right, according to Romans (and, I think, Galatians).
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xenonlion

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:14 pm

Also, I see the Sabbath as pointing to Christ.

Colossians 2:16-17
16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

I also like this: Romans 14:5-9
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Jeremiah 31:31-35
31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
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xenonlion

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:26 pm

Driven wrote:
Leviticus 11 is partly about kosher, or pure/impure, foods/animals, and partly about impure contacts. So essentially, it would seem that the Adventists still think that certain animals are considered impure. And yet, in Acts 10:9-16, God essentially abolishes the notion of kosher foods by telling Peter to "kill and eat" all sorts of non-kosher animals (remember, Peter was a Christian, but was a Jew before then). The passage can be taken metaphorically to mean that Peter was to accept eating with non-Jews, even though that was culturally a taboo thing to do. But Paul writes in Romans 14 that we are free from that. That's not to say that sticking to kosher foods is a bad thing; I believe it might have health advantages. But to rely on kosher foods as a means of being a "better person" or to gain salvation, I believe, is not what is right, according to Romans (and, I think, Galatians).

Also, I dont think that God would tell someone to go sin.

In Adventism, abstaining from uncleaning meats is more a way to maintain salvation and eating unclean meat is a sin.

I probably won't be having unclean meats regularly, but you still should not judge. I remember as an Adventist you're always checking and judging in the back of your mind if someone has piercings or is eating unclean food or drinking alcohol. Even if they are only having a little. If someone is a "Sunday keeper" then you're definitely judging them. If they are your friend, then you're worried about their salvation based solely on the fact that they go to church on Sunday and don't keep the Sabbath.
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xenonlion

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:12 pm

Luke 22:20
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Also read 2 Corinthians 3.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Also,

Deuteronomy 4:13
And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exodus 34:28
So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
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Driven

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Sun Nov 02, 2014 6:15 pm

Great groups of verses. I like your research. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:01 am

I believe that the Ten Commandments, while useful, are part of the Old Testament covenant that Jesus abolished.  Jesus only gave a few commandments. 

1.  Love one another.

2.  Love the Lord with all your soul, heart, mind, and strength.

3.  Love your neighbor as yourself.

4.  Go unto all the world and make disciples of all men and teach them to observe all the things He taught.

5.  Keep His commands.

Everything else you see Jesus teach are invitations.  He is inviting people to follow Him and to know the Father through Him.  However, these things are commands.  If we strive to do the first 3 on this list, you will find yourself taking care of most of the OT moral laws.  It would be hard to steal from someone you really love.  It would be hard to commit adultery if you really cared about your spouse or the person you are lusting after.  It would be difficult to lie if you really love someone enough to want to build them up with truth.  It would be impossible to walk away from God if you really love Him.

You also have to look that even Jesus and His disciples worked on the Sabbath.  Jesus performed miracles on the Sabbath (part of the OT law) and even picked grain to eat while traveling.  Jesus points out that these GOOD things were ok to do on the Sabbath.  The point of the Sabbath was to rest and to worship God.  You still have to eat, and taking care of the needs of someone else is a way to serve/worship the Lord.

Besides, we know that Paul gave us freedom when it comes to what day we worship on.  He tells us that one man keeps one day and another man keeps a different day.  We are to keep those as holy unto the Lord.  As a man who was once a Pharisee, he was a master scholar of the Law.  He gave the churches he wrote to freedom to worship when and how they wanted.  God did the same thing when the veil of the Temple was ripped in two pieces when Jesus died.  Jesus is our High Priest, and He is our Sabbath rest.

What I don't understand is why people insist that we must observe the Jewish Sabbath but fail to continue all the ceremonial cleansing, the animal sacrifies, etc.  Some people just want to keep others chained and serving dead religion and not a living Savior!

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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:59 am

Great post alldat. I forgot about Jesus healing someone on the Sabbath. The man with the messed up hand...
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xenonlion

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:11 pm

That's true all day. Nice post. This helps me a lot.

Also,
1. What about folks in Alaska where it will be dark for a long time and light for a time? There isn't a simple sunset to sunset.
2. Different people gave different opinions on what is okay and not okay to do on the Sabbath. So confusing.
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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:26 pm

You should always follow the example of Jesus and the teachings of the apostles.  After that, we're all giving our opinions of their teachings.

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Driven

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:02 pm

xenonlion wrote:
That's true all day. Nice post. This helps me a lot.

Also,
1. What about folks in Alaska where it will be dark for a long time and light for a time? There isn't a simple sunset to sunset.
2. Different people gave different opinions on what is okay and not okay to do on the Sabbath. So confusing.

1. I don't know of any Jews in Alaska, but I wonder what they would do. Technically, there must be times where the sun "rises" and "sets". Very Happy
2. This is the way I see it (I know many have different opinions, but this is sort of what is common): We are no longer obligated to keep the sabbath. There is a record in the books of the Law (somewhere between Exodus and Numbers) of a man who was stoned for gathering sticks on the sabbath; that no longer happens. Jesus himself said it was ok to do good on the sabbath. However, I believe the principle still stands that it's a good thing to take one day of rest, once a week. So I usually take a day off every week, with no work, just doing fun things - going for a walk, hanging out with friends, playing music, etc. In addition, there's a passage in the Epistles (maybe Hebrews) that Jesus is our Sabbath - our rest. I don't profess to understand it well, but Jesus fulfilled the law in that.
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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:14 pm

You seem to understand it better than you think Driven.

We also can eat shellfish and pork and woman aren't banned from the village during their mentstruation! Yay New Convenant!
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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:23 pm

Driven wrote:
In addition, there's a passage in the Epistles (maybe Hebrews) that Jesus is our Sabbath - our rest. I don't profess to understand it well, but Jesus fulfilled the law in that.

I see it like this: We can rest in Christ's finished work. This has helped me so much. I would worry so much years ago. I was so afraid of going to hell that I really didn't want Jesus to come back. I didn't feel like I was good enough. Now I have been able to not worry because I have faith in Jesus and I can rely on Him instead of living by a false gospel. I'm really terrible at explaining.
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Driven

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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:37 pm

xenonlion wrote:
Driven wrote:
In addition, there's a passage in the Epistles (maybe Hebrews) that Jesus is our Sabbath - our rest. I don't profess to understand it well, but Jesus fulfilled the law in that.

I see it like this: We can rest in Christ's finished work. This has helped me so much. I would worry so much years ago. I was so afraid of going to hell that I really didn't want Jesus to come back. I didn't feel like I was good enough. Now I have been able to not worry because I have faith in Jesus and I can rely on Him instead of living by a false gospel. I'm really terrible at explaining.

Don't worry, I understand what you're saying. I think a lot of people are also afraid of "not being good enough". And that is what I love about Christianity: none of us are good enough on our own. We are accepted, saved, transformed, by faith alone. If we fail, God picks us up.
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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:18 pm

Driven wrote:
xenonlion wrote:
Driven wrote:
In addition, there's a passage in the Epistles (maybe Hebrews) that Jesus is our Sabbath - our rest. I don't profess to understand it well, but Jesus fulfilled the law in that.

I see it like this: We can rest in Christ's finished work. This has helped me so much. I would worry so much years ago. I was so afraid of going to hell that I really didn't want Jesus to come back. I didn't feel like I was good enough. Now I have been able to not worry because I have faith in Jesus and I can rely on Him instead of living by a false gospel. I'm really terrible at explaining.

Don't worry, I understand what you're saying. I think a lot of people are also afraid of "not being good enough". And that is what I love about Christianity: none of us are good enough on our own. We are accepted, saved, transformed, by faith alone. If we fail, God picks us up.

Yes, I agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Christians and the 10 Commandments   Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:05 am

I kind of get this idea that a lot of Jesus' teachings were like "Here's all this stuff you've been taught your whole life.  Now, here's what it looks like in real life."  For example, Jesus said that the greatest commandment was to Love God completely and that the second greatest was to love other people.  He said the whole of the Law and Prophets hung on those two ideas.  When you look at those commandments, it is easy to see the 10 Commandments in there because they are really guidelines for how to relate to God and how to relate to other people.
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