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Dynamis

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Sat May 16, 2015 10:41 am

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I see no can of worms either, Dynamis.  You do one heck of a job with Angelic Warlord.  With the type site that it is, you will always have naysayers.  Heck, even your biggest fans don't always agree with you!  LOL  Your rating is too high or it is too low.  You labeled them as Christian or didn't label them as Christian.  You said they were this style of metal when they were really this other style.  Whatever.  Some people just want to stir the pot. 

You do an amazing job with your reviews and go more in depth than anyone I have ever heard of in this regard.  As long as you have the time and the heart for it, keep it up as you are doing a lot of musicians a great service.

Thank you for the kind and encouraging words- it makes all the time and effort I put into the site worthwhile. Looking forward to running Angelic Warlord for years to come...
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alldatndensum
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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Sat May 16, 2015 12:55 pm

ishmael81 wrote:
alldatndensum wrote:
That's precisely what most of us here do, but sadly others want to take pot shots at us for our choices by labeling us.
I can't help but think this is directed at me since I started the topic. I just wanted to understand what you guys think about how this works. I've shunned it from my own use because it quickly becomes convoluted and confusing. 

If this was directed at me, I'm curious to see what potshots you're referring to.


I apologize, ishmael, for not clarifying that better.  Those were not directed at you.  Those were more general statements as I was attempting to keep this a civil conversation.  To go deeper into my meaning would have made this a more hostile environment.  Rest assured that this was not directed at you as I can never remember you doing anything more that what you are doing here and that is asking questions.  I have never seen you stoop to name calling--even carefully worded name calling as some folks do.


Quote :
sometimes the pot needs to be stirred ....especially when things get stale...

I've done my fair share of that over the years.  However, I have learned that there is a fine line between livening things up and just being a punk with a chip on my shoulder.  Sadly, it is the perception of the persons you are dealing with that will decide that for you.

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Staybrite

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Sat May 16, 2015 5:39 pm

Just wanted to chime in and thank everyone for keeping this discussion civil.
Great thread Ishmael, seems like it has brought out quite a bit of productive discussion.

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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Sat May 16, 2015 8:03 pm

alldatndensum wrote:
ishmael81 wrote:
alldatndensum wrote:
That's precisely what most of us here do, but sadly others want to take pot shots at us for our choices by labeling us.
I can't help but think this is directed at me since I started the topic. I just wanted to understand what you guys think about how this works. I've shunned it from my own use because it quickly becomes convoluted and confusing. 

If this was directed at me, I'm curious to see what potshots you're referring to.


I apologize, ishmael, for not clarifying that better.  Those were not directed at you.  Those were more general statements as I was attempting to keep this a civil conversation.  To go deeper into my meaning would have made this a more hostile environment.  Rest assured that this was not directed at you as I can never remember you doing anything more that what you are doing here and that is asking questions.  I have never seen you stoop to name calling--even carefully worded name calling as some folks do.


Quote :
sometimes the pot needs to be stirred ....especially when things get stale...

I've done my fair share of that over the years.  However, I have learned that there is a fine line between livening things up and just being a punk with a chip on my shoulder.  Sadly, it is the perception of the persons you are dealing with that will decide that for you.
No worries man. Just making sure.
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Fundy

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Sun May 17, 2015 1:51 am

I always buy christian stuff and nothing else (or pretty much nothing else), so for me it is important to know if they are christian or not.  I know that labelling things can be a thankless task, but it is pivotal for some people including myself.  I want christian members in a band with christian lyrics, so that's what I go looking for.
It partly comes back to many hundreds of years ago I listened to secular stuff and I got one song stuck in my head.  I won't repeat the lyrics but suffice to say they were less than edifying!  From that moment on I figured I didn't want to be singing songs like that any more.  Even though I wasn't a christian at the time I bought some christian stuff just because it was more uplifting.  Now that's all I buy and I know that when I hear christian songs I think of God and that's no bad thing.
So I think having a 'christian band' label, whilst coming with a number of problems, is a very good thing.
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MikeInFla

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Sun May 17, 2015 6:02 am

alldatndensum wrote:

  Sanctuary, Pastor Bob's church at the time, was heavily pushing the whole "Christian rock" thing as a real ministry and they even owned Frontline Records & Intense Records at one time before they sold out.  

I did not know they owned the label, this is interesting. When did they sell out? I know they are Meis Music Group now but I am wondering what began the downfall of Intense? They had some great bands and when they were absorbed into another company the quality of product wasn't as good. Same when Pure Metal was sold to Star Song.
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bassdude

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Mon May 18, 2015 8:39 am

Interesting discussion....I'll throw my .02 cents in.

My position is this....people, on an individual basis, are Christians.....bands are not Christian, music is not Christian, churches are not Christian, they are made up of Christians(hopefully).

People just love to categorize things, it's what we do as humans.
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Xid

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Mon May 18, 2015 10:38 am

bassdude wrote:
People just love to categorize things, it's what we do as humans.
And "Christian" is a man made term to categorize people who follow Christ.  So why can't "Christian" be used to label music? Or a church group?  Or a movie?
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Mon May 18, 2015 11:36 am

Xid wrote:
bassdude wrote:
People just love to categorize things, it's what we do as humans.
And "Christian" is a man made term to categorize people who follow Christ.  So why can't "Christian" be used to label music? Or a church group?  Or a movie?

But why does it need a label at all?

And isn't it rather disingenuous sometimes? Most people call Chik-Fil-A a "Christian" business because Truett Cathy was a believer but did Jesus really redeem the soul of all those chicken sandwiches? Is their lemonade sanctifying enough to use for Communion?

The point is if we label anything other than a person Christian (including bands, movies, books and underwear), we're taking away from what Jesus did on the cross for humans.
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Xid

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Mon May 18, 2015 1:10 pm

Again, Christian is a man made term and doesn't add to nor take away what Jesus did did on the cross.
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Staybrite

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Mon May 18, 2015 5:40 pm

ishmael81 wrote:
Xid wrote:
bassdude wrote:
People just love to categorize things, it's what we do as humans.
And "Christian" is a man made term to categorize people who follow Christ.  So why can't "Christian" be used to label music? Or a church group?  Or a movie?

But why does it need a label at all?

And isn't it rather disingenuous sometimes? Most people call Chik-Fil-A a "Christian" business because Truett Cathy was a believer but did Jesus really redeem the soul of all those chicken sandwiches? Is their lemonade sanctifying enough to use for Communion?

The point is if we label anything other than a person Christian (including bands, movies, books and underwear), we're taking away from what Jesus did on the cross for humans.

Not trying to poke you in the eye (or anything like that) but this seems like one of those statements that is geared to invoke a  "well duh!" kind of responses.  When someone calls Chik-Fil-A a "Christian" business I am almost certain that nobody thinks that the chicken sandwiches have somehow been redeemed by Jesus.  I would think most people with half a brain would take it to mean that the company is owned by a Christian (or Christians) and would most likely operate by a set of standards most people might identify as Christian.  Are you suggesting that when somebody hopes to differentiate Chik-Fil-A from KFC that they should say "Well there is KFC and then there is Chik-Fil-A, which is a company owned (at least in part) by Christians operating under a set of standards most might identify with Christians"?  That seems a little foolish when they could just say "Well there is KFC and the Christian business Chik-Fil-A".

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Mon May 18, 2015 7:39 pm

Hmm..i would personally leave the christian tag off and say kfc or chik-fil-a...i never ever use a religious tag ...the fact that a company or person is Christian or Islamic or Jewish or even Wiccan makes me no difference....i am just looking for the best deal..
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Mon May 18, 2015 7:42 pm

I see what you're driving at Staybrite. My point is that it's a silly label. Jesus didn't save the company. Maybe some people in it but the company itself is an abstract business concept.
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Staybrite

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Mon May 18, 2015 9:11 pm

ishmael81 wrote:
I see what you're driving at Staybrite. My point is that it's a silly label. Jesus didn't save the company. Maybe some people in it but the company itself is an abstract business concept.

I get that, and I agree.  I certainly wouldn't go around calling it a Christian Chicken Joint all the time, but if I was trying to differentiate based on the Christian ownership I certainly might call it a Christian restaurant when what I really mean is a Christian owned restaurant.

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alldatndensum
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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Tue May 19, 2015 5:24 am

The difference I see in the Chick-Fil-A thing and different forms of art getting labeled is this:  Chick-Fil-A is a business that has made it a point to let people know it is run on Christian principles.  Hobby Lobby is the same.  However, they both have made it clear that their MISSION is to sell chicken or arts/craft supplies.

When we step into areas where the art becomes a platform, that's when the tag starts.  As I said in an earlier post that already seems to be forgotten, that's part of the marketing.  However, many of the artists, filmmakers, writers, etc. have over the years stated that their MISSION is to lead/point people to Christ with their works.  Ever been to a show with an altar call?  I have.  The whole concert was leading up to a point for people to make a decision to follow Christ.  The Christian music tag comes from that.  If your main focus is to lead/point people to Christ whether your target is the unsaved or those already saved, it will be labeled as Christian because of the message.  For me, the tag goes with the intent.

Does that mean that there are Christians who get lumped into the Christian industry just because of their beliefs?  Sure.  It happens.  As I've said many other times, people label things trying to understand them.  With that, there is no set standard, so the labeling becomes based on personal perspective.  Heck, we can't even agree nowadays if a band is really metal or not or what brand of metal they are.  Do you really think we'll get every band or artists corrected labeled as Christian since humans are doing it?  Doubtful.

I also don't see how labeling anything weakens or cheapens the redemptive work of Christ on the cross.  The only thing that does that are Christians who say they believe but live like they don't.  Sadly, the church as a whole seems more consumed with too many unimportant issues like this whole topic than we are with being committed followers of Christ.

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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Tue May 19, 2015 10:42 am

alldatndensum wrote:
Sadly, the church as a whole seems more consumed with too many unimportant issues like this whole topic than we are with being committed followers of Christ.

Alldat for the win!
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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Tue May 19, 2015 11:47 am

ishmael81 wrote:
alldatndensum wrote:
Sadly, the church as a whole seems more consumed with too many unimportant issues like this whole topic than we are with being committed followers of Christ.

Alldat for the win!
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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Tue May 19, 2015 2:48 pm

My newest gift in the Spirit is the ability to not give a crap about things.
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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Tue May 19, 2015 3:33 pm

Samson wrote:
My newest gift in the Spirit is the ability to not give a crap about things.
lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Tue May 19, 2015 4:57 pm

Staybrite wrote:
Samson wrote:
My newest gift in the Spirit is the ability to not give a crap about things.
lol!

Brilliant!
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alldatndensum
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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Tue May 19, 2015 5:42 pm

Samson wrote:
My newest gift in the Spirit is the ability to not give a crap about things.


It seems that I have recently noticed my abilities in this area are growing.

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Tue May 19, 2015 8:18 pm

just curious..does the religion of a companys owners or CEO's really matter..
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Samson

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Tue May 19, 2015 8:34 pm

To some, yes. Me, not so much.
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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Tue May 19, 2015 9:11 pm

Savage Amusement wrote:
just curious..does the religion of a companys owners or CEO's really matter..



I have a better question:  does that question really matter?  lol!

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Samson

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PostSubject: Re: Can we have a civil discussion about something?   Tue May 19, 2015 9:16 pm

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