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PostSubject: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:59 am

I am sure not many people in a rock forum will share my opinion, but I have gotten fed up with the big production a lot of churches put on today to "modernize" themselves.

Multiple guitarists, drummers, backup singers, not to mention songs being picked that are not really conducive to people singing along with.

Most of it has simply become a show.

Sorrry..give me one man with an acoustic guitar or keyboard, and some songs I can actually sing along with in a praiseful manner instead of trying to sing like I'm doing karaoke version of pop hits, and I am happy.



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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:54 am

I know what you mean.  When I watch Hillsong on TV I get that impression, everyone is super polished and it looks like just one big party.  In the end it just looks like a gig or concert rather than a place to come and worship the living God.  Not saying it is wrong, I just like less polished performers and more heartfelt singing.

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:18 am

I'd give my eye teeth to have someone lead with an acoustic guitar and do something written after 1970.  Old worn out hymns, a haphazard choir, and a piano/organ just get old.  The younger generation thinks it sounds like funeral music.  I tend to agree.

I do think that many churches have over modernized themselves to the point of being a spectacle.  However, if you don't modernize some, then you will stop bringing in anything more than retired geriatrics and your church has started the dying process.  I speak from experience.

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:07 am

alldatndensum wrote:
I do think that many churches have over modernized themselves to the point of being a spectacle.  However, if you don't modernize some, then you will stop bringing in anything more than retired geriatrics and your church has started the dying process.  I speak from experience.


I attended a Baptist church for a short time when I was in high school where at least 75% of the congregation was 75 or older. And I kid you not, every single Sunday, the pastor would begin his message with:

"Brother/Sister (fill in the blank) went to be with the Lord last night. Keep their family in your prayers."
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:28 am

Alldat,

I never said that I wanted old worn out hymns,  I just don't need or want a concert when I go to church.

Church music should be simple and something you can learn quick instead of constantly having to read the overhead lyrics.  You should be able to close your eyes and sing and praise the Lord.  IMO.

And the younger generation claiming they don't come because of the music a lot of times is just a copout. The ones who say that sometimes are only looking to be entertained or they just simply don't want to go period and use it as an excuse. 

Besides, the church should be going out into the community anyway,  not waiting for the community to come to them.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:50 am

Balance & moderation.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:48 pm

One of my challenges as a musician in a worship band is to not show off, but to genuinely praise God instead.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:56 pm

Quote :
Alldat,

I never said that I wanted old worn out hymns,  I just don't need or want a concert when I go to church.

I didn't say that you did want them.  I was speaking of my own church with the old worn out hymns, a haphazard choir, and piano/organ music. IT DOES sound like funeral music.

Quote :
Church music should be simple and something you can learn quick instead of constantly having to read the overhead lyrics.  You should be able to close your eyes and sing and praise the Lord.  IMO.

I agree that it should be easy to learn.  However, where is it written that someone must close their eyes to worship?  Besides, I can't remember words to songs I've written, so I almost always will be reading the screen as I will forget the verse that I've sang a million times.

Quote :
And the younger generation claiming they don't come because of the music a lot of times is just a copout. The ones who say that sometimes are only looking to be entertained or they just simply don't want to go period and use it as an excuse.

I'll give you that.  It is an excuse because they won't say what they really want to.  They will pinpoint the music rather than say that the church is dying, doesn't care about them, and stopped being relevant to any culture since the 1950s.

Quote :
Besides, the church should be going out into the community anyway,  not waiting for the community to come to them.

Again, I agree that we should be going to the community.  However, when you cannot modernize anything inside the church because of tradition, you will find that the community outreach stopped long ago.  That is the condition of my church right now.  I am there until the Lord says otherwise.  Until then, I will keep giving CPR to this horse to see if it is really dead or just unconscious.

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:59 pm

alldatndensum wrote:
Quote :
Church music should be simple and something you can learn quick instead of constantly having to read the overhead lyrics.  You should be able to close your eyes and sing and praise the Lord.  IMO.

I agree that it should be easy to learn.  However, where is it written that someone must close their eyes to worship?  Besides, I can't remember words to songs I've written, so I almost always will be reading the screen as I will forget the verse that I've sang a million times.


Again..where did I say that someone MUST close their eyes to worship.

I distinctly said "You should be able to" 


That means that people should SHOULD BE ABLE to close their eyes if they want when they sing worship songs, it doesn't mean they HAVE TO close their eyes.


But when you have a worship team up there rolling out a new Lincoln Brewster or similar tune every week you make it so no one can do it.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:02 pm

alldatndensum wrote:
Quote :
Besides, the church should be going out into the community anyway,  not waiting for the community to come to them.

Again, I agree that we should be going to the community.  However, when you cannot modernize anything inside the church because of tradition, you will find that the community outreach stopped long ago.  That is the condition of my church right now.  I am there until the Lord says otherwise.  Until then, I will keep giving CPR to this horse to see if it is really dead or just unconscious.


Not all churches are like that. There are a lot of churches here in Delaware where the churches are modernized and they go out into the community to reach the lost and help the poor and needy on a regular basis. 

My only issue is I think that the worship team is too "modernized".
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:10 pm

A lot of people believe that worship has become more of an entertainment thing. And it might even be true in some instances. But we must be careful about our own opinions and biases, because what we think might not be true at all. God looks at the heart.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:17 am

I think that it has become entertainment for a couple of reasons.

1.  Churches think they need this to draw a younger crowd.

2.  Shallow relationships with the Lord, maybe?

3.  There are times when any of us are distracted and just can't get into the service.  At least the entertainment factor might keep folks watching during those times.

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:05 am

Here is how I approach it. I play drums & sing in the praise team at the church I attend. We worship with the words we sing, the music we play and with our whole hearts. We want it to be the best it can be, not for people to say, "Hey, that's a great praise band," but for God's glory. I want to give Him my best. Yes, we introduce new songs on occasion, but the words are always on the power point  so everyone can learn and sing a new song to the Lord. We don't entertain or put on a show, we worship. I'm not going to tone down my praise because someone visits the church just to hear the band. It's not about them, it's about God. He is worthy of our praise. If it is one guy playing acoustic & singing or a full blown praise team. It's all about Jesus.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:59 am

Singing praise & worships in church with only a piano or an organ or with a band has the meaning to praise & worship God with our voices.

When the church music is becoming a specatacle I have the idea that something is not good.
It's to give God the honor, the praise and the worship He deserves.

Or .. maybe I have misunderstood this thread again?
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:34 am

To me it comes down to what it seems the hearts of the people leading are.  I know you can't really tell that, but when they seem to be trying super-hard to make the song sound just like the version you hear on the CD, when the singers use the same choreographed hand gestures, when it seems like the visual spectacle is any focus at all, it really screams out show to me. 

I know I've told this story before, but here goes...

When we moved from Lexington to Anderson four years ago, we left a growing, vital church with a good balance of contemporary music and hymns.  It wasn't fancy, it was well done I think.  When we got here, our first priority was to find some place that had a good program for our kids.  We were only looking in the same denomination because, well, we liked it.  The ONLY UM church in our city that had anything that remotely looked like what we wanted for our kids was the big downtown church where the congregation's average age was 127.48 (that's after our 1 and 3 year olds were added).  They didn't just do the organ and hymns, they did the most obscure hymns ever written.  I have been a regular church attender since I was about 9 and most Sundays I had no clue how to sing most of the songs.  Our dissatisfaction with that church grew and we started looking elsewhere.  The first church that was recommended to us was a huge megachurch (I've now come to discover that it is the rebranded and relocated church that Sandy/i/ie Patti/y/ie grew up in.).  I think we went three time because while it had a great children's ministry, the worship services were too much of a production.  They actually have two worship services going on simultaneously.  The main one is in the "auditorium" (definitely not a sanctuary, you get corrected for calling it that) with theater style seating (complete with cupholders for the lattes you can buy in the lobby) and has five or six worship leaders, a choir, and an orchestra.  They do some songs, the pastor preaches, they give an appeal for the offering, they do more songs and everyone leaves.  In a smaller auditorium, they have a younger, hipper service where people sit around cafe-type tables or in folding chairs.  There's more of a rock-band instrumentation with a couple of singers, they do some songs, the pastor (who has changed out of his Dockers, loafers, and golf shirt into a t-shirt, Chuck Taylors and skinny jeans) preaches, then they do a few more songs and leave.  I know it is just a picky thing on my part that may not bother any of you in any way, but there is no sign of a cross or any sort of sacred iconography anywhere in either auditorium or the lobby, where they pump out very excellent jazz (Miles Davis, Dave Brubeck, Stan Getz, etc.).  It truly felt like what I see on TV when I see footage of Osteen or Warren or any of those big megachurch things.  I hated it.  We ended up going back to the old (in every sense) church.  That church, however, shuts down all programming after Memorial Day and has services out at a local park it owns.  Since half my family is violently allergic to the great outdoors, we started looking for another church that met our needs for the summer.  We got another set of recommendations and went to another church that was of the same denomination as the megachurch, but was a little smaller and was said to have a great children's ministry.  It did and our oldest kid got a lot out of it, but the worship services still had that pre-fab, production feel to it.  Fast forward--we more or less made the old church home and went to the smaller other church during the summer, but eventually got fed up with the old church and somewhat reluctantly started going to the other church full-time.  Over the past couple of years though, the worship has changed.  There is a new crop of worship leaders that really seem to be bringing a worshipful vibe to the service rather than a production. 

I guess my point is that I think the so-called "worship wars" are way overblown.  We don't have to choose between modern music and worshipful music, it is in our attitudes and our spirits.  I agree that it is hard to worship when you are constantly being bombarded by totally new tunes.  I think that's another thing our church does well--when they introduce a new song, it will start out as a "special" number just for the band and then the congregation is invited to join in the chorus at the end a few times.  Then they bring it back later in the service and again for the next few weeks so that it gets to be familiar.  They also aren't locked into one instrumentation and sometimes they do an all-acoustic thing, sometimes they just do guitar and voice or piano and voice.  They've even added a ska-style horn section a couple of times.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:43 am

Good conversation but I think we're missing one thing here:

Only God knows someone's heart.

I play acoustic/rhythm guitar for our band at church. We play modern music, we have multiple guitarists, backup singers and a drummer. I know these folks pretty well. I don't think the music we play, the lights in the background or the screen behind us with the wrods has anything to do with anything but Jesus.

I can't speak for every church, but I also think we have to be careful to not generalize and criticize something just because we don't like it. This kind of conversation is why the church isn't unified. Complain less, and do something to improve it.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:37 pm

ishmael81 wrote:

I can't speak for every church, but I also think we have to be careful to not generalize and criticize something just because we don't like it. This kind of conversation is why the church isn't unified. Complain less, and do something to improve it.

Whatever, ishmael...

You do realize that this is a forum, right?

A forum to TALK about stuff, right?

Did I name a specific church, no. Did I rip on anyone by name, no.

Am I leaving churches over it, no. Am I complaining to the pastor, or anything like that, NO.

I am in a forum venting about something that annoys me.

"This kind of conversation" is what forums are about, thank you very much.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:33 pm

I'm sorry. I thought we could all share our opinions. I'll just be over in the corner like a good boy keeping my mouth shut.

Please let me know when I can converse in the discussion again.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:53 pm

ishmael81 wrote:
I'm sorry. I thought we could all share our opinions. I'll just be over in the corner like a good boy keeping my mouth shut.

Please let me know when I can converse in the discussion again.


Give up the pity party, ish

You have to expect a comment back when you tell someone that the topic they started a discussion on is the "kind of conversation" that is the reason "why the church isn't unified."

Then you make a comment that I should "Complain less, and do something to improve it."



Did you really think I wasn't going to comment back?
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:06 pm

alldatndensum wrote:
I think that it has become entertainment for a couple of reasons.

3.  There are times when any of us are distracted and just can't get into the service.  At least the entertainment factor might keep folks watching during those times.

ROTFL
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:07 pm

rockerVu2 wrote:
Singing praise & worships in church with only a piano or an organ or with a band has the meaning to praise & worship God with our voices.

When the church music is becoming a specatacle I have the idea that something is not good.
It's to give God the honor, the praise and the worship He deserves.

Or .. maybe I have misunderstood this thread again?


You did not misunderstand   Very Happy

You got it exactly.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:29 pm

NoOneIsHere wrote:
ishmael81 wrote:
I'm sorry. I thought we could all share our opinions. I'll just be over in the corner like a good boy keeping my mouth shut.

Please let me know when I can converse in the discussion again.


Give up the pity party, ish

You have to expect a comment back when you tell someone that the topic they started a discussion on is the "kind of conversation" that is the reason "why the church isn't unified."

Then you make a comment that I should "Complain less, and do something to improve it."



Did you really think I wasn't going to comment back?

Not really a pity party there chief. I disagreed with you and called you out on it. Your response is exactly what I'm talking about. I disagreed with you and you lashed out at me. Do you really think your first reply to someone when they express a concern about the church or the faith should be "Whatever..."? Unless, of course, you're a teenage girl...
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:32 pm

Your response was far more than just disagreeing with me.

The fact that you don't understand that says a lot.

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:34 pm

And then you continue to take shots at me with the teenage girl comment...

Yeah...real hard to figure out why people think you bring dissension
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone else tired of church music becoming a spectacle?    Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:39 pm

Then please accept my sincere apologies. It's clear I was I the wrong.
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