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Guilty/Forgiven

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PostSubject: Bowie....   Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:18 am

Course everyone knows by now David's passed of cancer.
Not sure if anyone here's seen his last videos for his last album "Black Star" ?
There's strange imagery and words from Scripture, but they seem really twisted and in some cases, almost mocking. If I'm interpreting it wrong, well, I'd like to know that I am, and it'd be nice to understand what's really being said or sung about. Otherwise, my big question/concern is this- Why would someone, who's on death's bed with cancer, openly mock and treat the Great I Am with such fearlessness ? 
Perhaps someone here can answer this for me. As a believer, I always hope that a person who has passed, would have, prior to death, bowed their knee to the Almighty with a healthy fear of God when faced with their mortality.

So, what am I seeing here ? Help me out.

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PostSubject: Re: Bowie....   Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:21 am

Lazarus (another Biblical reference) video seems ok, a little weird (which is Bowie's standard), but then again, is there mockery here ? It's a little hard to tell.

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PostSubject: Re: Bowie....   Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:05 am

Hmmm... I played part of the first video and honestly I could not pay attention because the off-beat drums were incredibly distracting. So, for the first time ever I read the lyrics to Modern Love... And for over 30 Years (until 5 minutes ago) I always thought it was about getting to church on time and loving God and man. But here is what it says:


I catch a paper boy
But things don't really change
I'm standing in the wind
But I never wave bye-bye
But I try, I try
There's no sign of life
It's just the power to charm
I'm lying in the rain
But I never wave bye-bye
But I try, I try
Never gonna fall for

(Modern love) walks beside me
(Modern love) walks on by
(Modern love) gets me to the church on time
(Church on time) terrifies me
(Church on time) makes me party
(Church on time) puts my trust in God and man
(God and man) no confessions
(God and man) no religion
(God and man) don't believe in modern love


So that song seems to be anti-religion. Huh.....


Ok, just watched the Lazarus video and it was not as distracting as the first. Obviously it is about death and being in Heaven (whatever that may be to him). I think the blindfold represents the "unknown" and that even in his version of heaven is is dark and unknown, yet scary as someone underneath him reaches for him, someone who is in as much fear as he is (and there is no fear in Heaven).. And the end where he is frantically writing he is searching for whatever it is he needs to be free like the blue bird. And while we will never know if he found what he needed (Jesus) we can only hope that he did. I don't see the second video as a mockery at all, I see it as someone who fears death and knows it is approaching but hopes for the best and hopes to be free as a blue bird. 


The other song I will need to read and see if I can figure out what is going on. 
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PostSubject: Re: Bowie....   Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:25 pm

Right on. Very good evaluation.

Did you watch Blackstar to the end ?  The whole crucifixion scene with the middle character (Christ??) laughing at people, then at one point David uses the term "The I Am" in a context that didn't jive with me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very open to bands and musicians expressing their own opinions, and they have the freedom to mock what we hold sacred. I'm also by no means a music conservative... My concern is, how can a man at death's door mock, or paint in a dark light, Christianity and Christ ?  If that man doesn't believe in Christ, that's his free volition, but if I didn't believe in Christ and was at death's door, I wouldn't openly and brazenly mock any gods of any religions.  I would want my last work to be open and accepting of any and all beliefs (course I DO believe and would do things quite differently if I were an entertainer).
It just surprises me that a dying man chooses Christianity (in the symbolisms and the phrases: 3 crosses, "I AM", Lazarus, etc) in a dark angle.  Why not Buddha or Mohammed, Krshna, any other religion ?  I'm always fascinated that musicians and other entertainment goes for the throat of Christianity 98% of the time. I guess we have televangelists and other fanatical scandals of the past to thank for the world putting a target on Christ and His own. (as well as, of course, Christ Himself telling His own that the world WILL hate Him and His children. Also, the fact that since Christianity IS the ONLY truth, it is the prime target of the darkness to attack).

I'm just kinda thinking out loud here... as well as feeling pain for Bowie.
As a believer it always does my heart good to hear that ANYONE came to faith, not just a big name artist.
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MikeInFla

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PostSubject: Re: Bowie....   Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Guilty/Forgiven wrote:
Right on. Very good evaluation.

Did you watch Blackstar to the end ?  The whole crucifixion scene with the middle character (Christ??) laughing at people, then at one point David uses the term "The I Am" in a context that didn't jive with me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very open to bands and musicians expressing their own opinions, and they have the freedom to mock what we hold sacred. I'm also by no means a music conservative... My concern is, how can a man at death's door mock, or paint in a dark light, Christianity and Christ ?  If that man doesn't believe in Christ, that's his free volition, but if I didn't believe in Christ and was at death's door, I wouldn't openly and brazenly mock any gods of any religions.  I would want my last work to be open and accepting of any and all beliefs (course I DO believe and would do things quite differently if I were an entertainer).
It just surprises me that a dying man chooses Christianity (in the symbolisms and the phrases: 3 crosses, "I AM", Lazarus, etc) in a dark angle.  Why not Buddha or Mohammed, Krshna, any other religion ?  I'm always fascinated that musicians and other entertainment goes for the throat of Christianity 98% of the time. I guess we have televangelists and other fanatical scandals of the past to thank for the world putting a target on Christ and His own. (as well as, of course, Christ Himself telling His own that the world WILL hate Him and His children. Also, the fact that since Christianity IS the ONLY truth, it is the prime target of the darkness to attack).

I'm just kinda thinking out loud here... as well as feeling pain for Bowie.
As a believer it always does my heart good to hear that ANYONE came to faith, not just a big name artist.
Hmmmm..... I watched it and am left with a feeling that it is mockery, but I just don't know. Maybe the intent is confusion. I didn't pay too much attention to the lyrics, will need to actually read them. 3 scarecrows on a cross is a mockery in that they are not real people. They are put there to scare crows. So is he saying that Jesus is a scare crow to "scare" people into conforming to a religion? What about the end, where it appears the person in the middle is trying to get down "off the cross" but doesn't and it appears the "witch doctor" is thrashing them. Very strange indeed, I do not see why anyone, knowing that the end is near, would defy to the very end. 

Is this album his "Famous last words?" Look at some of these from believers and non-believers and it is obvious who sees darkness and who sees light:

Joseph Stalin, while on his deathbed - as related by his daughter Svetlana to Malcolm Muggeridge: “He suddenly sat up, groaned, shook his fist at the ceiling as if he could see beyond it, then fell back and died.”



President George Washington: “Doctor, I am dying, but I am not afraid to die.” He folded his hands over his chest and said: “It is well,” 



Marilyn Monroe: “I don’t need your Jesus.” Related by Billy Graham who tried to present the Gospel message to Marilyn, just before she died at age 36.



John Wesley, preacher and songwriter: “The best of all is that God is with us, farewell, farewell.” 



Edward Gibbon, author of the ‘Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire’: “All is lost, irrecoverably lost. All is dark and doubtful.” 



Clarence Darrow, the Scopes Trial lawyer in the famous 1925 debate, while on his deathbed asked several clergymen to “please intercede for me with the Almighty. During my life I have spoken many times against Christians, and I now realize that I may have been wrong.” 



Alexander the Great was an admirer of Socrates and Plato (both were atheists). When he died he threw a handful of his blood at the sky in defiance of God. 



Sir Francis Newport allowed his name to used on a brand of cigarettes. On his deathbed he cried out: “Oh eternity. Oh eternity”. And he uttered a groan of inexpressible horror as a cried out, “Oh the insufferable pains of hell, forever, forever.” 



Voltaire, one of history’s best known atheists, often stated that “by the time I’m buried, the Bible will be non-existent.” His last words were: “I am abandoned by God and man; I shall die and go to hell alone.”



Charles Haddon Spurgeon, beloved preacher and author, on his deathbed: “I can hear them coming!” He sat straight up in bed and asked: “Don’t you hear them? This is my coronation day. I can see the chariots, I’m ready to board.”



Dwight L. Moody, famous preacher and founder of the Moody Bible Institute, while on his deathbed: “Can this be death? Why it is better than living! Earth is receding, heaven is opening. This is my coronation day” 


Sorry to post so many but they are all so interesting.... And one from a person no one knows outside of my family and his friends: He was a college professor, athiest. On his deathbed he asked for prayer. (I did not see any of this was was told to me by another family member who was there). I was told he was at peace and accepted Christ at the very end. As some time passed he told another family member in the room "It is time for me to go now. I am ready and it will be peaceful. He is telling me it is time". And they asked "Who is telling you it is time?" and he said "The man who has been in the room since we prayed, the one dressed in all white. He says it is OK to go now and I see the light, so I must go with him, I am not alone". And he died.

Blackstar could be a cry for help, an anger statement at mortality, or it could be Bowie thinking "Let's shock 'em one more time!". 

Off to read the lyrics now.................
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PostSubject: Re: Bowie....   Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:36 pm

Wow dude, awesome quotes !  Awesome as well as saddening.

Quote :
Clarence Darrow, the Scopes Trial lawyer in the famous 1925 debate, while on his deathbed asked several clergymen to “please intercede for me with the Almighty. During my life I have spoken many times against Christians, and I now realize that I may have been wrong.” 
This one is more of what I'm talking about... when even the biggest God-hater is faced with their mortality and shedding their earthly temple, you'd think that this would be more of the typical response. I just cannot comprehend the hatred of Jesus and His loving work on our behalf.  That's not to say I haven't been angry at God and cursed Him in my pain (only to later be horrified by my actions)... but when you KNOW you're dying, I just cannot comprehend throwing in a last "fist in the air" or mocking the ONLY One who can give you eternal life, whether you like the way God has done everything or not.
Shame.
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PostSubject: Re: Bowie....   Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:57 pm

There are different kinds of people I guess.


The one who chooses to not believe and simply lives a hedonistic life ignoring all things to do with God, living as though we fall asleep in death to never awake. These do not entertain the existence of God, even though deep in their hearts they KNOW He's there.

The one who refuses to believe, yet shows that they DO believe in His existence (ie the demons "believe") by the fact that they acknowledge Him in their anger, in their "entertainment" by mocking and trashing of a Being who they believe is NOT even there - why even bring Him up if He's not even there ?  I mean, why shake a fist at the heavens if you were sure there was NO ONE there ?? Cuz, in my opinion, they DO believe He's there... they just don't like Him and His ways.
Even those bands who glorify satan and blaspheme God, they KNOW He's real, He's there, they have just chosen to remain angry with Him cuz they can't understand why things are the way they are in this life. Hell, I don't understand either... but I'm not about to question the One in charge. It's HIS show, not mine. I choose to TRUST Him that He knows what He's doing.  I choose to love Him cuz He loved me first and showed me that love by His completed works.  Even if I didn't choose to believe in Him, I would be VERY respectful of all beliefs as one of them may just be correct. Also, as I AM a believer, I refuse to belittle other people's beliefs* though I know they're wrong - rather, I'd like to be respectful of people and their decisions (unless of course they want to hear about Jesus from me, then I'd share what I know).
* disclaimer - the ONLY belief system I have publicly trashed is Islam.  Even then, I could be wrong in doing that, but I've been passionately angry with a religion who claims "peace" yet kills 1000s of innocents cuz they refuse to believe in their religion, OR cuz someone mocked their prophet. But that's for a whole other thread...

The one who claims agnosticism, as they refuse to do their homework to deduce in reason that there HAS to be a Creator and there can ONLY be ONE truth.  So they live a life avoiding the knowledge of Truth so that they can say "well, I wasn't sure, since He never opened the clouds and shouted out to me".

Etc...
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PostSubject: Re: Bowie....   Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:07 pm

Again, puzzling topic.... I read the lyrics and can understand them better without the music playing. Here is what an actual "Black Star" is:

A black star is a gravitational object composed of matter. It is a theoretical alternative to the black hole concept from general relativity. The theoretical construct was created through the use of semiclassical gravity theory. A similar structure should also exist for the Einstein-Maxwell-Dirac equations system, which is the (super)classical limit of quantum electrodynamics, and for the Einstein-Yang-Mills-Dirac system, which is the (super)classical limit of the standard model.
A black star need not have an event horizon, and may or may not be a transitional phase between a collapsing star and a singularity. A black star is created when matter compresses at a rate significantly less than the freefall velocity of a hypothetical particle falling to the center of its star, because quantum processes create vacuum polarization, which creates a form of degeneracy pressure, preventing spacetime (and the particles held within it) from occupying the same space at the same time. This vacuum energy is theoretically unlimited, and if built up quickly enough, will stop gravitational collapse from creating a singularity. This may entail an ever-decreasing rate of collapse, leading to an infinite collapse time, or asymptotically approaching a radius less than zero.
A black star with a radius slightly greater than the predicted event horizon for an equivalent-mass black hole will appear very dark, because almost all light produced will be drawn back to the star, and any escaping light will be severely gravitationally redshifted. It will appear almost exactly like a black hole. It will feature Hawking radiation, as virtual particle pairs created in its vicinity may still be split, with one particle escaping and the other being trapped. Additionally, it will create thermal Planckian radiation that will closely resemble the expected Hawking radiation of an equivalent black hole.
The predicted interior of a black star will be composed of this strange state of spacetime, with each length in depth heading inward appearing the same as a black star of equivalent mass and radius with the overlayment stripped off. Temperatures increase with depth towards the centre.


I know the above can be confusing but in contrast it does make sense. I believe he is referring to himself as a dying star. He knows he is about to die. 


Something happened on the day he died
Spirit rose a metre and stepped aside
Somebody else took his place, and bravely cried
(I’m a blackstar, I’m a blackstar)
How many times does an angel fall?
How many people lie instead of talking tall?
He trod on sacred ground, he cried loud into the crowd
(I’m a blackstar, I’m a blackstar, I’m not a gangstar)
I can’t answer why (I’m a blackstar)
Just go with me (I’m not a filmstar)
I’m-a take you home (I’m a blackstar)
Take your passport and shoes (I’m not a popstar)
And your sedatives, boo (I’m a blackstar)
You’re a flash in the pan (I’m not a marvel star)
I’m the Great I Am (I’m a blackstar)
I’m a blackstar, way up, on money, I’ve got game
I see right, so wide, so open-hearted pain
I want eagles in my daydreams, diamonds in my eyes
(I’m a blackstar, I’m a blackstar)


I think he sees  himself as a dying star. "I'm the Great I Am" might be David comparing himself to Jesus. David KNOWS he is dying, just as Jesus knew he was dying. Maybe this isn't so much about religion as it is David's struggle with his own impending death. He could be using religious metaphors to express frustrations with life and death.


Interesting topic Jim. 
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PostSubject: Re: Bowie....   Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:32 pm

Sorry couldn't bring myself to even listen to more than about a minute and half of that first song (so couldn't get into the lyrics). Like Mike, the off beat thing just drove me nuts.

Musically I dug the Lazarus tune, but I couldn't make much out of the lyrics...but I'm not really good at that sort of thing.

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PostSubject: Re: Bowie....   Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:20 am

I only liked a couple of songs of his.  The only movie I remember seeing him in right off the bat was Labyrinth which is a cult classic now.

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PostSubject: Re: Bowie....   Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:16 am

Personally, I never cared much for Bowie. I can't say I have ever deliberately listened to any of his songs in entirety, except perhaps "Space Oddity", and even that one has been so long I couldn't tell you all the words.
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PostSubject: Re: Bowie....   Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:01 am

I've never been a Bowie fan but I like some of his work.
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PostSubject: Re: Bowie....   Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:52 pm

I am a very casual fan myself. Nothing against him at all, just not my thing. I love the stuff from "Let's Dance" because of the fabulous guitar playing by Stevie Ray Vaughn on that album.
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PostSubject: Re: Bowie....   Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:04 pm

I was a huge fan of two of his albums "Ziggy Stardust & the Spiders from Mars" and his 80's pop album "Let's Dance". Bonus that it also features Stevie Ray Vaughn as the album's guitarist as Mike said. It was funny because I owned that album for a few years before I realized that SRV was the guitarist for it. I went back and re-listened, and found a new appreciation for the music. But other than that his music was "hit or miss" for me. An amazingly talented guy

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PostSubject: Re: Bowie....   Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:46 am

He was a strange one. Extremely talented, had several songs I really liked -yet I (of all people) own zero albums by him. Just never liked him enough to go beyond a few random downloads.
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