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Andreas89



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PostSubject: Attending a gay "wedding"   Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:00 am

So the time is coming that my sister in law will go to city hall with her girlfriend...

Although it came as a shock a few years ago, it made a lot more sense. The sister of my wife came "out of the closet". She had even tried to have a relationship with a man (who, apparently, was fairly complacent), but it became a disaster. Although I never had the best relationship with this woman, I really feel bad for all the years she spent in denial/hiding.

Anyway, my wife comes from a family that can be called "reformed christian". This fact kind of gave me hope that she would be able to find meaning in life without a partner that fit into her realm of attraction. Counter indication was that she was studying to become a preacher (you know, the women in ministry thing). If you want to be a preacher in the Netherlands as a woman, you will most likely end up in the "less faithful to the Bible"-area. On top of that, her mentor appeared to be a practicizing homosexual. So yeah, not long after that she got a girlfriend. Ever since, she's roaming around when it comes to biblical matters; before that, she always seemed a very stable person.
Her parents don't approve (problem!), I don't approve (although that's not so much of a problem, I'm just an in law), and my wife... she's just happy that her sister isn't with a person she's not happy with, she doesn't want to think too much about it.

Next month we will travel to the Netherlands for that day. Since I believe that the Bible is the #1 source for answers when you ask how to show gratefulness to the Lord, I can't be happy with the situation. Of course, I've read some articles of wise people on the question whether or not to attend a gay "wedding". Almost unanimously, they say "don't". And they make very good points.

But I will go anyway, and here's why. As I said, my sister in law has come in an environment that lets desire lead the outcome when it comes to questioning these matters. Her parents, although heartbroken, want to attend since she's their daughter. In my case, my family has a long tradition of not going to church services "since the truth isn't told in church anymore" (I come from a weird kind of sect). So not attending is showing disapproval, a very weird kind of reasoning IMO. My presence, however, will not be approval. And those two women know that, even though we never talk about that subject. That's actually the thing, not attending in my case will be like cutting the ties (and so will it be for my parents in law). It will be very hard, but it's my choice.

One of the reasons that I tell you guys this is that we don't really have a church community here (very difficult in Germany!). Another is that, since I have the idea that you share alot of my views, you will know my pain.

Just to be sure, I'm NOT asking for your approval/compassion. I'm just curious to know what wisdom you have to share on this matter.

Any thoughts?
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alldatndensum
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PostSubject: Re: Attending a gay "wedding"   Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:35 am

This would be a difficult situation to have to walk through.

As a Christian, I do not believe that homosexuality is right.  Anything sexual outside of marriage, I believe, is outside God's will for us.

With that said, I don't know what I would do unless the problem presented myself to me.  I'd like to say I would not go.  However, I would probably talk to the one getting married, explain how I believed in the most loving way possible, and ask if they still want me there despite my being against what they are doing.  If they still want you, then I'd go in good conscience.  Think of it more as a family reunion that way.

At the same time, I would have a hard time attending a wedding that I felt like was a total sham in God's eyes.  As a minister, I would refuse to perform that ceremony.

So, there are no easy answers with this, my friend.  Just pray that you and your wife will see God's will for this for you and be on the same page about it regardless of what you do.

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PostSubject: Re: Attending a gay "wedding"   Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:28 am

Wow, very hard situation indeed.

I agree that sex outside of marriage is a sin, as is homosexuality.
However if it was somebody that I loved (or even just cared about) I think I would have a difficult time not attending....but I think I would certainly have to let the person I cared about know that I didn't approve.  I have done that very thing with my adult daughter and her boyfriend (that she lives with), I have told them both that them living together as husband and wife without being marriage is not something that I approve and neither does God.  Having said that I don't beat them up with it, as I don't want to drive my daughter away from me or God.

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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Attending a gay "wedding"   Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:51 am

If you want to go, just go. If you don't, then don't. If we don't attend a wedding based on what we think is sin, we should probably never go.

1. 50% of "Christian" marriages end in divorce.
2. Most marriages I've been to, the couple had sex before the wedding.
3. I've been to several weddings where people drank to excess during the reception.

All things that the Bible tells us are sin yet we've all been to weddings like what I talked about above (in fact, I went to one several years ago where the couple had sex before marriage, lots of people got drunk at the reception and they got divorced a year later.)

If we're being honest here (and I assume you want us to be), your only hang-up is that it's a marriage for a homosexual and not a heterosexual couple.
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PostSubject: Re: Attending a gay "wedding"   Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:07 am

We can't know how any marriage will end, and fornication can be repented of prior to marriage, again, we can't be sure. What we can be sure of is that there can be no "homosexual marriage." BTW, there are no "heterosexual" nor "homosexual" couples, there are just men and women, some of whom engage in unnatural sexual acts...

As far as should one attend, I suppose there could be circumstances where that may be called for...
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PostSubject: Re: Attending a gay "wedding"   Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:36 pm

I've heard this before but have yet to see someone produce scripture to back it up.
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PostSubject: Re: Attending a gay "wedding"   Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:10 pm

Or the other way around that you SHOULD go.

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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Attending a gay "wedding"   Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:15 am

Uh... what?
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Candlemass

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PostSubject: Re: Attending a gay "wedding"   Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:08 am

ishmael81 wrote:
I've heard this before but have yet to see someone produce scripture to back it up.

Back what up?

BTW, folks use scripture to back up anything they want to...
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Attending a gay "wedding"   Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:34 am

Candlemass wrote:
ishmael81 wrote:
I've heard this before but have yet to see someone produce scripture to back it up.

Back what up?

BTW, folks use scripture to back up anything they want to...


Sorry, I thought I hit the quote button before I started typing.

This part:
What we can be sure of is that there can be no "homosexual marriage." BTW, there are no "heterosexual" nor "homosexual" couples, there are just men and women, some of whom engage in unnatural sexual acts...

It's an interesting concept, to be sure, but is scriptural? I'm not saying you're wrong or that I even necessarily disagree but if you put a statement out there like that (especially a Christian board), you kinda need to have something to stand on.
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Andreas89



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PostSubject: Re: Attending a gay "wedding"   Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:27 am

It was never my intention for this thread to become a discussion whether or not there can be such a thing as "gay marriage". It shouldn't come as a surprise that I (the thread starter) can't call this a marriage in any way. But the reason for that, that's something else.

And indeed Ishmael, a lot of sinful things can surround a wedding. But all those things can be healed by repentance and so on. But you can't change the gender of one person in a gay "marriage". As much as some people want everyone to believe that Wink
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Candlemass

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PostSubject: Re: Attending a gay "wedding"   Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:48 am

ishmael81 wrote:
Candlemass wrote:
ishmael81 wrote:
I've heard this before but have yet to see someone produce scripture to back it up.

Back what up?

BTW, folks use scripture to back up anything they want to...


Sorry, I thought I hit the quote button before I started typing.

This part:
What we can be sure of is that there can be no "homosexual marriage." BTW, there are no "heterosexual" nor "homosexual" couples, there are just men and women, some of whom engage in unnatural sexual acts...

It's an interesting concept, to be sure, but is scriptural? I'm not saying you're wrong or that I even necessarily disagree but if you put a statement out there like that (especially a Christian board), you kinda need to have something to stand on.


Common sense won't cut it?
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ishmael81

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PostSubject: Re: Attending a gay "wedding"   Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:06 am

Candlemass wrote:
ishmael81 wrote:
Candlemass wrote:
ishmael81 wrote:
I've heard this before but have yet to see someone produce scripture to back it up.

Back what up?

BTW, folks use scripture to back up anything they want to...


Sorry, I thought I hit the quote button before I started typing.

This part:
What we can be sure of is that there can be no "homosexual marriage." BTW, there are no "heterosexual" nor "homosexual" couples, there are just men and women, some of whom engage in unnatural sexual acts...

It's an interesting concept, to be sure, but is scriptural? I'm not saying you're wrong or that I even necessarily disagree but if you put a statement out there like that (especially a Christian board), you kinda need to have something to stand on.


Common sense won't cut it?

Well that depends if you're referring to the common sense that Donald Trump supporters talk about, or common sense my dad talks about, or...

You see my point? I'm not worried about common sense because it changes with every new generation.
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pastorbrad

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PostSubject: Re: Attending a gay "wedding"   Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:14 pm

I tip-toe into this very humbly...

I will simply say this--God is holy.  And His Word is crystal clear on this subject.

BUT--there are no explicit commands regarding the specific issue initially shared.  What wisdom or insight might this community offer on this matter of attending a "gay wedding."

I'm not in your shoes.... but here are two questions I think I would ask myself in this situation.

1..  Does this "couple" even claim to follow Christ as Lord?  If not--it's pointless to hold them to Christ's standards.  If yes, the Bible's teachings on how we should respond are crystal clear.

2.  What is the best way for me to demonstrate both grace & truth (John 1:14)?

Personally, I can't think of a scenario where I could attend and event like this.  But the prayer of my heart would be--"How do I walk a line of truth... in love?"  Of course--we have to understand that even when we act in genuine agape love--if we do not "agree" or "condone" we are often times unjustly labeled "haters" or "bigots" -- (I've always found that line of thinking interesting--If we are haters because we hold a conviction based on Scripture that conflicts with "their" view--why are they not "haters" when they "disagree" with and "label" us?)  Anyway--in these kinds of cases it is pointless to argue further.  It's just time to shake the dust off your feet, move ahead, pray and trust the Lord.
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Andreas89



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PostSubject: Re: Attending a gay "wedding"   Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:45 am

pastorbrad wrote:
I'm not in your shoes.... but here are two questions I think I would ask myself in this situation.

1..  Does this "couple" even claim to follow Christ as Lord?  If not--it's pointless to hold them to Christ's standards.  If yes, the Bible's teachings on how we should respond are crystal clear.

2.  What is the best way for me to demonstrate both grace & truth (John 1:14)?
Thanks for replying this way, it actually helps. Just let me answer your questions.

1) Weird situation. My sister in law claims her girlfriend actually believes in Jesus the same way like my parents in law does. At least that's what she tells them (feels a bit like the category "are you trying to convince me, or yourself?" But well...). About my sis in law herself, she kind of more and more adopts the vague feelgood interpretation of christianity that you can mold in your own image. So in short: at least one of them claims to be.
But I never actually heard her speak about it, it's just what I heard from my parents in law. It just could be that Jesus is their Savior, but not their Lord, if that makes any sense.

2) There's multiple things to consider here, but I'll keep it short. My wife would not be happy if I didn't attend, but that's a minor factor. At least she doesn't consider my attendance approval. As I said, I'm already quite alienated from my sister in law (her girlfriend has that effect to a lot of her friends and her parents). Not attending would cut them off almost completely. Which might not sound like the best of ideas; at least not if I consider myself "having a better view on this subject".
Plus, I wouldn't like to be the first statement about their relationship from my side being not attending their little party. I'm not the kind of person to get to the bottom of such a topic fast, and they don't seem like people who would like that. And I've only seen them like five times since they started dating. So there has never been a chance either.
Last but not least (the most, maybe), my parents in law will have a horrible day that day. But they will attend, "because she is our daughter". At least, I want to be there to support them.
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PostSubject: Re: Attending a gay "wedding"   Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:52 pm

Andreas89, I will pray for you---that God will fill you with His Spirit and guide you through this difficult path and enable you strie that balance of truth and grace.  Thumbs Up

The one good thing I can see in attending is it leaves the door open for future sharing.

Press into Jesus and hold on tight my brother!

As the old Hymn says, 
Trust and obey
for there's no other way
to be happy in Jesus,
 but to trust and obey!
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Andreas89



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PostSubject: Re: Attending a gay "wedding"   Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:24 am

So, the day was last week. As I said in the other thread, it was one of the worst days of my life. The whole thing happened in The Hague, and the last time I was there was for my grandpa's funeral two years ago. And I can tell you that was a way happier occasion (singing simple hymns, with just the family; it was the end of more than 15 years of Alzheimer's for him).

The bottomline of the whole day? How incredibly intolerant the whole pro gay marriage movement is. Every fiber of my mind and body was repulsed by the whole concept, but I went anyway for the sake of my family in law (my father in law already said that if he didn't go, he'd lose his daughter). And on the other side, the whole atmosphere was happy in a forced way.

The key moment was the church service. I think the right term for that part of the church is "liberal" (which apparently means conforming to society no matter what), so maybe you get the picture. The pastor wass also the father of my sis in law's girlfriend (will not call her "wife").
And the sermon was afwul. A lot of forced happiness ("Lord, we are around these two women in a circle of light/love/whatever"), which kind of made it clear that different opinions were not appreciated.

The most amazing thing of his sermon was that, even though I knew that there were several people in the chapel who didn't agree with the concept, I felt completely alone and abandoned by his sermon. All those words seemed to go right through me as if I wasn't there, towards the rest of the audience, who "of course couldn't be happier". And my wife (who also doesn't agree) was sitting next to me! My wife was completely appalled by the intolerant nature of the sermon; and it takes a lot for a sermon to make her angry.
Plus, a brother of my mother in law came talking to my parents in law, crying. Because of the limited/limiting nature of the sermon.

The whole day still makes me angry and at this very moment I feel tears burning behind my eyes.
But let me get one myth out of the way: I DON'T feel better than the others in a case like this, I wasn't sitting there judging them. I don't think it's right to say that when someone sees people walking into a trap, that the person who sees it feels better; I just feel really bad that they took this path. And no, mister pastor (not you Brad Smile ): it is NOT cold and cruel to reject gay marriage. If he only knew the pain that was going on within some people.

So let's always keep in mind that gay marriage should not be supported in any way (of course). And don't expect any tolerance from their side, apparently that's only useful when the pro gay marriage side isn't in the majority yet.

As for me? I will remain tolerant. But truly tolerant.
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